On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Michael Schreifels <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Aug 30, 4:25 pm, Davide Rognoni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Not Google but: >> >> "Guido just pronounced: Django is the [Python] web >> frameworkhttp://www.cmlenz.net/archives/2006/08/the-python-web-framework > > So what? Guido likes Django... > http://www.djangoproject.com/weblog/2006/aug/07/guidointerview/ > > FYI if you listened to Guido's talk on building Django apps on AE at > Google I/O this year, he said that "Django is just one of many > frameworks you can use." The talk is available online.
I was at Google I/O and attended that talk. Yes, I think that is a great goal for the Google App Engine team, but it is currently not a reality. I hope this can be addressed soon, as personally I feel it is one of the biggest issues facing the project. There are many incredible tools from other frameworks and applications like say, MoinMoin, that could benefit from a more complete version of Python. At the very least the documentation should be updated to state that it is the goal to support other frameworks than webapp. > > On Aug 30, 4:40 pm, Davide Rognoni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> fromhttp://www.cmlenz.net/archives/2007/06/logic-in-templates >> >> """How could a custom, sparingly documented, somewhat inconsistent, >> and mostly unproven (compared to Python) mini expression language be >> any better for template authors?""" > > I wasn't using Django over a year ago when that was published (just > think: that was when oldforms was still in, eeek), but I will say one > thing: out of all of the frameworks and libraries I have used, Django > is THE best documented web framework I have ever come across. Also, > that quote is comparing how proven an entire language is to a mere > collection of template tags and constructs... Let me preface that I use Django for many projects and I like it for certain things. Please don't take offense anyone at my view about flaws in Django: This is an excellent argument actually. Why reinvent Python and keep making special cases like threaded comments each time a new flaw in the template design is found? This actually violates the "Zen of Python", http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0020/. Of course we can take this discussion offline. This is a very valid point against Django templates. Reinventing constructs > >> """In my humble opinion, this kind of "dumbed-down" templating results >> in only one thing: more lines of code in the application modules, >> lines of code that are really only about presentation, and should be >> in the templates. And frustration every single time you need to add >> those lines.""" > > So Django templates aren't for everyone. Django was designed to be > loosely coupled so you can stick in your own preferences where > desired. This phrase, "Django was designed to be loosely coupled", is another complaint I have against Django, and something I frequently hear. What does this mean? In my opinion Pylons is loosely coupled: http://pylonsbook.com/. Django does not do things that I feel are loosely coupled, like documenting in a published book or official documentation how to use third party components such as SQLAlchemy, Jinja, or setuptools. Almost every alternate popular framework supports directly, with copious official documentation, setuptools: http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/setuptools, and SQLAlchemy: http://www.sqlalchemy.org/. Here are a list of alternate frameworks in Python that people might reference: Zope 3: http://www.zope.org/Products/Zope3 Grok: http://grok.zope.org/ Pylons: http://pylonshq.com/ Turbogears2: http://turbogears.org/2.0/ Werkzeug: http://werkzeug.pocoo.org/documentation/tutorial/ All of these support in their documentation setuptools and SQLAlchemy and are in my opinion loosely coupled. Loosely coupled means different things to different people and it is marketing terminology that Django should probably drop, as it is false. > > On Aug 30, 4:05 pm, "Noah Gift" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I think for new comers to Python, it IS presented as the only choice >> as many people would have difficulty "monkey-patching" another >> template engine, as there have been issues in getting, to my knowledge >> at least, Mako and Genshi to fully work on appengine. It seems like >> this new cookbook area would be a good spot to for developers of those >> other templates to put their integration recipes: > > If I wanted to work with PHP and didn't like the fact that it allowed > my designers to access PHP, I could certainly choose to use a template > language. But of course, it is going to involve overcoming a barrier > to implementation. Django templates works great for most people. For > those who it doesn't work for, they should be prepared to have to do > some extra work. Besides, for beginner's needs, what exactly is it > that Django templates doesn't work for? Again please reference this URL for many examples: http://jjinux.blogspot.com/search?q=django+templates My own example is nested hierarchical relationships from the model. > > Django templates is incredibly newbie-friendly. As mentioned, the > documentation is (IMO) second-to-none, and there are other great > resources, like the free talks available online covering Django, and > djangobook, which is mostly up-to-date. > > But still, I don't think this conversation is the appropriate place > for this discussion. I just wanted to make sure, that your statement "You don't understand how Django templates work" was properly addressed and Google searchable, as it was not a valid argument against why Django templates don't support Python logic. I would protest against this common meme I hear about Django templates that if you don't like them then you don't understand how they work. In many cases they have severe design flaws, which are impossible to address without adding Python back into the template, or adding one off hacks and weird special cases which the official django template documentation if full of. Again, this is my opinion. Feel free to contact me offline for a more detailed answer anyone. > > > -- Noah Gift http://noahgift.com --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Google App Engine" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/google-appengine?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
