Hi Jon I still don't really understand your negative experiences and I am sorry that you haven't yet got an openEHR repository working yet. Can you let me know what parts of the spec haven't been published that allow others to achieve this? I can forward this on to the openEHR foundation.
We certainly are interested in storing patient records as that's all openEHR is about! Our repository does just this using the openEHR reference model and archetypes to constrain it. I'm not sure where you got the notion that we weren't interested in that as there are 6 clinicians in the company. The demo that you would have seen at the Ocean stand was showing retrieval of pathology, radiology, postnatal discharges and neonatal discharges from our openEHR repository. The data was received from other vendors in the trade area in HL7 and other formats, converted to openEHR data and stored in our repository in real time. This same repository is currently in the hands of groups in Turkey and the Netherlands and is undergoing technical review in other European countries. As a commercial organisation, we will sink or swim on whether this works or not and that is where we are very happy to be. Please don't confuse Ocean Informatics with the openEHR foundation. Ocean is a commercial organisation that is aiming to commercialise the openEHR specification so don't expect Ocean staff to spend a lot of time helping you in your research (We don't have enough time to do what we need to do now!). The openEHR lists are usually very helpful for implementation issues and both Thomas Beale and Sam Heard amongst others will happily answer your questions. Regards Hugh M: 0404 033 767 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Patrick > Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2006 11:05 PM > To: General Practice Computing Group Talk > Subject: [GPCG_TALK] Re: Where is openEHR going? > > I have been waiting to see Tim's reply to Hugh's message and > now wish to add my own observations. While my comments show a > different experience in dealing with OpnEHR I do not wish to > be seen as hostile to it. I think it has much of merit but I > do have some negative experiences. > Last summer we decided to get an understanding of OpenEHR and > ran a project to analyse their materials. Our conclusion was > that the data model was so complex that retreivals are likely > to both perform slowly and be so complex that maintenance > would be very difficult. This report was presented as a paper > at HIC2006 - to my knowledge no-one from OpenEHR interests > attended the presentation apart from one person who came up > to me after the presentation and claimed our conjectures were > wrong and that he had used it for an implementation. > > Subsequently, we ran another project to implement an OpenEHR > system for patient records. We used the materials available > from the OpenEHR web pages. We found that we couldn't > actually complete the system as there was necessary knowledge > held by the staff that was not avaiable to us, not even when > we requested it. SO we have a 90% completed system. Our > objective had been to construct a system which we would then > use to construct a large synthetic data set so that we could > implement a real system and stress a persistent storage > model. Obviously we never got to create the synthetic data, > build the persistent store or do the stress testing. > > I went to the OpenEHR stand at HIC2006 and engaged in > disucssions with their people. All but one was clearly > nervous/hostile. The staff protested that they did have a > persistent store and I asked for it to be demostrated. In > those demonstrations it become apparent that by persistent > store they meant storage of the archetype data model - not > patient records - they said that wasn't their concern. > > These experiences have left me with a dubious image of > OpenEHR progress. > So I am left very much in the same position as Tim and > basically concur with his commentary. Particularly, if Hugh's > protest below is to be taken as legitmate then test systems > need to be available for stress testing, and we would be > quick to put up our hands to do the testing. > > Meanwhile we must get on with our work and are researching > our own architecture for hospital information systems based > on a number of criteria, the most important of which is to > give the greatest weight to the users mental models of > processes and workflow so that they can be mimiced as > closely as possible in the eletronic system. We are writing > up this work and hope to release it shortly. The prototype > demonstrates the essentials of data capture and automatic > workflow of data movement from one station to the next. > > cheers > jon > > Hugh Leslie wrote: > > Hi Tim > > > > I wish you would sit down with us and have a look at what > we are doing > > rather than 'be a cynical bastard'! We have appreciated > your support over > > the years and I can understand your frustration, however we > have been > > working really hard with few resources - most of the > software described > > below is the product of small teams working with very small > budgets. Its > > only really in the last 12 months since version one was > released that all > > this has happened. > > > > I have included part of the text of the email I sent to you > recently and > > again would be happy to sit down with you and show you > where we are at. ALL > > of this software was demonstrated at the Ocean stand at HIC > this year, > > including taking HL7v2 pathology and radiology results and > storing them as > > openEHR compositions in the database. > > > > We as a company at the moment are more concerned about > having too much work > > and too much interest rather than not enough. Most of this > is in Europe, > > and I for one am proud to be part of an Australian company > that is doing > > world recognised work in this area. > > > > "We currently have demonstrable software that: > > - creates archetypes (the ocean archetype editor and a > java archetype > > editor). > > - We can take the archetypes and create templates from > them which you can > > use to build gui forms using a drag and drop process. > (Ocean Template > > Designer) > > - We have worked with clients who have taken these guis > and used them to > > enter data and save the data into our repository. (Ocean EhrBank) > > - EhrBank is an openEHR repository which will store any > archetyped data > > (the ocean kernel sits on top of it providing the ability > to build openEHR > > objects from archetypes or templates. > > - We have a query editor that allows you to build sql like > queries to query > > the data and we have clients in Turkey that have > successfully demonstrated > > this functionality for themselves. > > - We have software that allows you to display data queried from the > > repository in a web page. > > > > We also have a terminology service that is well integrated > into the tools > > and allows you to build pre-defined queries in snomed etc. > These can then > > be used in a gui to allow clinicians to select terms. > > > > We are not the sort of company that hypes up its wares and > so Tom is being > > honest with you in saying that these systems have not been > tested in high > > volume mission critical situations (although volume testing of the > > repository is going on as we speak.) These tools have been > out there being > > demonstrated and tested by real clients for at least 6 > months and we have > > generated a lot of interest across Europe (In particular Turkey, the > > Netherlands and Denmark and there is a lot of interest in the UK). > > > > Most of these tools have been built since openEHR v1.0 was > released so in > > fact the timelines have been particularly spectacular in my opinion > > especially since we have done most of it under our own > steam. We can > > demonstrate the full chain that you referred to but not all > of it is as > > slick as we would like it yet (that said, we think its all > pretty slick!) > > If you were at HIC this year, you would have seen this all > working at the > > stand, and we have come a long way since then. > > > > We are definitely ready to start some small implementations > and there are > > opportunities in Australia as well as Europe (and the US as > Sam mentioned.)" > > > > Apart from these things, Tom and I were invited to an > eclipse meeting in > > Europe recently to discuss an eclipse version of the > openEHR tools and this > > process is on-going. > > > > Regards Hugh > > > > I forgot to mention that there is the beginnings of an > archetype repository > > available from the openEHR web site and the Ocean web site. > > > > M: 0404 033 767 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Churches > >> Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2006 8:50 AM > >> To: General Practice Computing Group Talk > >> Subject: Re: [GPCG_TALK] Request for XML dump for RAIL > >> > >> David Guest wrote: > >>>> The data is identified as such and grouped in a > hierarchy. But its > >>>> description and constraints are entirely open and > >> undefined. I guess > >>>> its a useful lowest common denominator > >>> Does anyone think openEHR will ever produce the goods? > >> There has been correspondence on the openhealth mailing list > >> regarding this issue recently. David More quipped about > >> "geological timescales", perhaps with some justification. To > >> summarise and paraphrase (accuratey I hope) the thread: the > >> openEHR people assure us that several private firms are using > >> openEHR-based systems in deployed proprietary vertical health > >> apps, and that lots of profs and students in various > >> universities are studying and tinkering with it. The openEHR > >> specifications have been accepted as a proposed standard (but > >> not ratified or approved as a standard as yet). Furthermore, > >> Ocean Informatics and the openEHR Foundation are themselves > >> working on a suite of tools which actually implement the > >> ideas behind openEHR, but these tools are in different stages > >> of completeness: tools to define and edit openEHR archetype > >> definitions are complete and available as open source. Tools > >> to actually store and retrieve data using openEHR archetypes > >> are at alpha or beta stages in the openEHR secret laboratory, > >> but have not been fully tested and are not ready for > >> production use. Thomas Beale has offered access to an openEHR > >> engine hosted in the Ocean Informatics labs, to be accessed > >> via a proprietary Web service interface requiring the use of > >> a Microsoft C# .NET DLL on the client side, for > >> capability-testing purposes by interested parties (contact > >> Thomas Beale at Ocean Informatics if you are interested). All > >> these openEHR tools still under development may or may not be > >> open sourced in the future - the Ocean Informatics and > >> openEHR people need to investigate business models. Other > >> parts of the openEHR puzzle, such as a shared library of > >> openEHR archetype definitions, and a full query language, are > >> still on the drawing board or in only early stages of > >> implementation. Oh, there is also an open source version of > >> an openEHR storage/retrieval kernel being written in Sweden, > >> but it is not yet complete either. > >> > >> I asked the same questions of the Ocean Informatics and > >> openEHR people in 2003, and after much email correspondence > >> and head scratching, I was assured that usable, > >> production-quality openEHR implementations would be available > >> quite soon. The same assurances were given just a few weeks > >> ago. I conclude that they are indeed a bit further along now > >> with actual implementation than they were three years ago, > >> but still have quite a way to go, but it is very hard to > >> extrapolate the progress line to divine when it might cross > >> the V1.0 boundary, although the fact that they were working > >> on GEHR (the predecessor to openEHR) about 15 years ago, and > >> the openEHR has been going for nearly a decade might provide > >> some clues. Perhaps the remaining distance is being halved > >> with every passing year? Or perhaps I am just a cynical bastard? > >> > >> Tim C > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Gpcg_talk mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> http://ozdocit.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gpcg_talk > >> > >> __________ NOD32 1920 (20061213) Information __________ > >> > >> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > >> http://www.eset.com > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Gpcg_talk mailing list > > [email protected] > > http://ozdocit.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gpcg_talk > > > __________ NOD32 1920 (20061213) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ Gpcg_talk mailing list [email protected] http://ozdocit.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gpcg_talk
