We are probably in kind of a gray area here but there are multiple
issues
that are worth pursuing to some degree. First, I think we have to draw
a
line between
"accessible" and "useable" . Fortunately for us, this line moves so it
isn't always easy to define. While we might say that a program is
accessible when using the
mouse keys, we are, in the process, letting the software developer off
the
hook for not implementing good keyboard access, something that has been
a
solid part of
accessibility for at least fifteen years. I don't think we really want
to
back away from that even with good mouse keys. In some cases, mouse
keys
will do the job
pretty well as might be the case on something that is somewhat stable
such
as a folder list, but where do we draw the line. Something like a
folder
list is a very well
known structure so there just isn't any mystery as to how it can be
approached with a keyboard. Therefore, I would tend to say that a
program
that can be used with
mouse keys is useable, but I would hesitate to say accessible. Windows
Live Maile, unfortunately, doesn't exactly fit here, though, as far as I
can tell.
I believe that most functions of Windows Live Mail are supported with
keyboard navigation as far as I can tell. The problem seems to me to be
in knowing where the
focus is. I realize there are some strange focus issues, but there is
also something about the controls that cause screen readers not to
handle
them well. It has been
said that Windows Live Mail doesn't work real well without a screen
reader, but I don't know about that. I do know that navigating between
folders results in the
new folder being announced multiple times even by Narrator. It
therefore
doesn't seem to me that one can say that Windows Live Mail doesn't have
keyboard
navigation. Rather, we find that using the mouse keys seems to give a
clearer indication of which folder has focus.
So now here is the third unknown. Whenever something new comes out that
a
screen reader doesn't handle, we get frustrated and screen reader
developers
sometimes even fuel our anger a little. When I ran into Lotus Notes
showing which message was selected by putting a box around it instead of
using colors, many
years ago now, I was frustrated. It was non-standard, nobody should do
it. This was not accessible, and it wasn't at the time although it was
useable. But then,
Window-Eyes began tracking this box and tracking it well while JFW
didn't
at that point. JFW used a very complicated script that used the mouse
to
make you think
the message list worked like what we thought of as standard, but I found
that the script was very sensitive to the environment and one had to
constantly be making
sure that Lotus Notes and the screen reader were in sync. With
Window-Eyes at the time, all was great. Lotus Notes had the keyboard
support, but screen
readers, except Window-
Eyes for a while, couldn't take advantage of the output. Soon these
boxes
became common, and tracking them became a standard part of most, if not
all screen
readers. So how do we as consumers know if Windows Live Mail is just
sloppily written or weather it is using some new technique that can be
handled in time? It
does sound, from Jim's post, that a script could be written to get the
information needed from MSAA. Whose job is it to write the script? Why
do we need to have to
deal with writing a script or dealing with some new interface on a
program
that is produced by a company that is experienced with accessibility?
Since it is a free
program, they are not trying to develop something fancy to maximize
sales.
Still, how do I as a consumer know that the issues can't be dealt with
but
that Windows
Live Mail is just not a high enough priority because there are other
options.
The bottom line here is that I found my experience with Windows Live
Mail
to be frustrating. I could use the mouse keys, but I don't think I want
to go back to that
for tasks that I do so very often, at least not if there are other
options. Still, it really isn't clear in my mind where the blame should
lie. Software isn't going to stand
still, but why in a free e-mail program?
Best regards,
Steve Jacobson
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:08:41 -0700, Alan R. Downing wrote:
I use it myself, but I can't claim to be an expert. Having said that, I
am
able to log in, review my mail, classify certain messages as junk, etc.
I
certainly haven't tried every function, but what I have tried to do I
have
succeeded in accomplishing it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Tanner" <[email protected]>
To: "Jim Grimsby JR." <[email protected]>; "'net bat'"
<[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: Windows live mail
You know I really get tired of hearing this statement. I really would
like you and the others with this attitude go on a job and prove to me
that you can do a job with an application that you call accessible
when
the only way you can use it is with mouse movements and clicks.
Let's face it, it is a cop out to keep from making an application
accessible. If it isn't usable then quit this cop out of excusing it
away
and not fixing it. Stop helping sighted folks trying to force us to
use
a
mouse when they and you know it really doesn't work!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Grimsby JR." <[email protected]>
To: "'net bat'" <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:18 AM
Subject: RE: Windows live mail
No it is accessibility maybe not user friendly but if something can
be
found
with the mouse using the mouse keys it is accessible. Also windows
live
mail works with msaa and so scripts can be created as I started to do
at
one
time to find your way through the trees and list. So this program is
accessible and works fine.
Jim Grimsby Junior.
Please feel free to contact me at anytime using one of the below
methods.
Skype: Jim.Grimsby 909-498-4711.
E-mail: [email protected]
Windows live messenger: [email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: net bat [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:39 PM
To: GW INFO
Subject: Re: Windows live mail
and how did you get it to work when gw micro also said they will not
support
it.
you don't know where you are in the list of mail boxes without
haveing
to
use the mouse. the same if you want to move a message to another
folder.
you
don't know where you are without useing the mouse. this is not
accessability
haveing to fiddly fart around all day with the mouse trying to find
the
mailbox you want to go to.
no thanks.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Grimsby JR." <[email protected]>
To: "'nick danger'" <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:18 PM
Subject: RE: Windows live mail
Hi windows live mail works fine both with window-eyes 7.1 and jaws
10.
Not sure why everyone is saying it doesn't work.
As for this shark screen reader never used it so I have no idea. I
think
we
need to start calling window-eyes the bifocals just to be fair
here.
Jim Grimsby Junior.
Please feel free to contact me at anytime using one of the below
methods.
Skype: Jim.Grimsby 909-498-4711.
E-mail: [email protected]
Windows live messenger: [email protected]
From: nick danger [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 4:03 PM
To: Jeff Bishop
Cc: window eyes
Subject: Re: Windows live mail
Houdy,
Better to use thunderbird rather than windows mail if you're running
window-eyes 7. Some say that windows mail works ok using the shark
but
I
can't verify that personally.
Tony
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Bishop <mailto:[email protected]>
To: Walter Cone <mailto:[email protected]> ; GW Info List
<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Windows live mail
The issues with Windows Live Mail are not Window-Eyes issues but
general
issues with the application itself. It has very poor keyboard
handling
in
it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Cone <mailto:[email protected]>
To: GW Info List <mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:32 PM
Subject: Windows live mail
Hi all,
Are we able to use Windows Live mail with window eyes 7.1? I
know
in
previous versions there were major issues like moving between
folders.
Thank you,
Walt
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