Steve,My biggest concern about the lack of usability is that MicroSoft/MSN has done a good job of attempting to force anyone with an email account with MSN or Hotmail to use this app. That is a lot of users, and a lot of those users are screen reader users. Now, add the fact that this is one of the email clients that MicroSoft will encourage people to use when they install Windows 7 that comes with no email client, and you are talking a lot of blind folks who need to have good usable access to Windows Live Mail, and that is not what they have now by any stretch of the imagination.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, September 18, 2009 8:51 AM Subject: Re: Windows live mail
We are probably in kind of a gray area here but there are multiple issues that are worth pursuing to some degree. First, I think we have to draw a line between "accessible" and "useable" . Fortunately for us, this line moves so it isn't always easy to define. While we might say that a program is accessible when using the mouse keys, we are, in the process, letting the software developer off the hook for not implementing good keyboard access, something that has been a solid part of accessibility for at least fifteen years. I don't think we really want to back away from that even with good mouse keys. In some cases, mouse keys will do the job pretty well as might be the case on something that is somewhat stable such as a folder list, but where do we draw the line. Something like a folder list is a very well known structure so there just isn't any mystery as to how it can be approached with a keyboard. Therefore, I would tend to say that a program that can be used with mouse keys is useable, but I would hesitate to say accessible. Windows Live Maile, unfortunately, doesn't exactly fit here, though, as far as I can tell.I believe that most functions of Windows Live Mail are supported with keyboard navigation as far as I can tell. The problem seems to me to be in knowing where the focus is. I realize there are some strange focus issues, but there is also something about the controls that cause screen readers not to handle them well. It has been said that Windows Live Mail doesn't work real well without a screen reader, but I don't know about that. I do know that navigating between folders results in the new folder being announced multiple times even by Narrator. It therefore doesn't seem to me that one can say that Windows Live Mail doesn't have keyboard navigation. Rather, we find that using the mouse keys seems to give a clearer indication of which folder has focus.So now here is the third unknown. Whenever something new comes out that a screen reader doesn't handle, we get frustrated and screen reader developers sometimes even fuel our anger a little. When I ran into Lotus Notes showing which message was selected by putting a box around it instead of using colors, many years ago now, I was frustrated. It was non-standard, nobody should do it. This was not accessible, and it wasn't at the time although it was useable. But then, Window-Eyes began tracking this box and tracking it well while JFW didn't at that point. JFW used a very complicated script that used the mouse to make you think the message list worked like what we thought of as standard, but I found that the script was very sensitive to the environment and one had to constantly be making sure that Lotus Notes and the screen reader were in sync. With Window-Eyes at the time, all was great. Lotus Notes had the keyboard support, but screenreaders, except Window-Eyes for a while, couldn't take advantage of the output. Soon these boxes became common, and tracking them became a standard part of most, if not all screen readers. So how do we as consumers know if Windows Live Mail is just sloppily written or weather it is using some new technique that can be handled in time? It does sound, from Jim's post, that a script could be written to get the information needed from MSAA. Whose job is it to write the script? Why do we need to have to deal with writing a script or dealing with some new interface on a program that is produced by a company that is experienced with accessibility? Since it is a free program, they are not trying to develop something fancy to maximize sales. Still, how do I as a consumer know that the issues can't be dealt with but that Windows Live Mail is just not a high enough priority because there are other options.The bottom line here is that I found my experience with Windows Live Mail to be frustrating. I could use the mouse keys, but I don't think I want to go back to that for tasks that I do so very often, at least not if there are other options. Still, it really isn't clear in my mind where the blame should lie. Software isn't going to standstill, but why in a free e-mail program? Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 20:08:41 -0700, Alan R. Downing wrote:I use it myself, but I can't claim to be an expert. Having said that, I amable to log in, review my mail, classify certain messages as junk, etc. I certainly haven't tried every function, but what I have tried to do I have succeeded in accomplishing it.----- Original Message ----- From: "David Tanner" <[email protected]>To: "Jim Grimsby JR." <[email protected]>; "'net bat'" <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 8:03 PM Subject: Re: Windows live mailYou know I really get tired of hearing this statement. I really would like you and the others with this attitude go on a job and prove to me that you can do a job with an application that you call accessible when the only way you can use it is with mouse movements and clicks. Let's face it, it is a cop out to keep from making an applicationaccessible. If it isn't usable then quit this cop out of excusing it away and not fixing it. Stop helping sighted folks trying to force us to use amouse when they and you know it really doesn't work!----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Grimsby JR." <[email protected]>To: "'net bat'" <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 1:18 AM Subject: RE: Windows live mailNo it is accessibility maybe not user friendly but if something can be foundwith the mouse using the mouse keys it is accessible. Also windows live mail works with msaa and so scripts can be created as I started to do atone time to find your way through the trees and list. So this program is accessible and works fine. Jim Grimsby Junior.Please feel free to contact me at anytime using one of the below methods.Skype: Jim.Grimsby 909-498-4711. E-mail: [email protected] Windows live messenger: [email protected] -----Original Message----- From: net bat [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:39 PM To: GW INFO Subject: Re: Windows live mail and how did you get it to work when gw micro also said they will not support it.you don't know where you are in the list of mail boxes without haveing to use the mouse. the same if you want to move a message to another folder.you don't know where you are without useing the mouse. this is not accessability haveing to fiddly fart around all day with the mouse trying to find the mailbox you want to go to. no thanks.----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Grimsby JR." <[email protected]>To: "'nick danger'" <[email protected]> Cc: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 9:18 PM Subject: RE: Windows live mailHi windows live mail works fine both with window-eyes 7.1 and jaws 10. Not sure why everyone is saying it doesn't work.As for this shark screen reader never used it so I have no idea. I thinkwe need to start calling window-eyes the bifocals just to be fair here. Jim Grimsby Junior. Please feel free to contact me at anytime using one of the below methods. Skype: Jim.Grimsby 909-498-4711. E-mail: [email protected] Windows live messenger: [email protected] From: nick danger [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 4:03 PM To: Jeff Bishop Cc: window eyes Subject: Re: Windows live mail Houdy, Better to use thunderbird rather than windows mail if you're runningwindow-eyes 7. Some say that windows mail works ok using the shark butI can't verify that personally. Tony----- Original Message -----From: Jeff Bishop <mailto:[email protected]> To: Walter Cone <mailto:[email protected]> ; GW Info List <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Windows live mailThe issues with Windows Live Mail are not Window-Eyes issues but generalissues with the application itself. It has very poor keyboard handling in it.----- Original Message -----From: Walter Cone <mailto:[email protected]> To: GW Info List <mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2009 1:32 PM Subject: Windows live mail Hi all, Are we able to use Windows Live mail with window eyes 7.1? I know in previous versions there were major issues like moving between folders. Thank you, Walt If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. 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