Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web Browsing)

[David]

Kevin,
I agree with you. It is a long and twisted road - the road of programming. 
And I try to keep patiently waiting for the engineers to have their job 
done. That is why, my prior message repeatedly stressed the fact, that we 
don't want things rushed, just that we want things going. And, since GW has 
told us they are working on the matter, I rest assured they really so are 
doing.

Still, I think it is timely to let both GW and other users be aware of all 
the challenges with WE and specially so with browse mode. Otherwise, how 
would they know, what to prioritize?

And, also, the road of programming has been just as twisted, long and tough 
for the competitors. They have got something going, GW has not. OK, the 
competitors did not get things fully sorted maybe, but they at least got 
things going. You always will have at least two approaches, in cases like 
this. 1, you could keep things tight, not releasing anything until your 
product is 100 percent. Or, 2, you could get something out; maybe not more 
than 90 percent, but still it would be better than what was before.

Now, if we were to really exergerate here, let's say you are facing one of 
the websites that really causes trouble. Maybe you are in a position where 
this happens numerous times a day, or even several times an hour. Which of 
the above approaches would be most beneficial to you? To drop your work, 
simply because the thing does not work, and no fix is around? Or, to have 
something that at least would get you moving, even if it was not as smoothly 
as you wanted?

Buying your new shirt might be possible to put off for the future. Your old 
one will just have to do, and maybe you already have shirts enough. But 
paying your rent, morgage and bills; that won't wait for some kind of future 
releases. Wonder how long Microsoft would stay in business, if their produc 
did not let people perform a smooth - or close to smooth - browsing on the 
internet. OK, yes, they are big boys; GW are not. But since GW are working 
this closely with the engineers of Microsoft, why doesn't their products 
cooperate better? Understandably, Firefox is another story, since their 
developers are set free to a much higher extend.

One thing that puzzled me recently, is that I tried to reverse to WE6.1 for 
just a moment, and visit some of the websites I am encountering trouble 
with. And, believe it or not, WE6.1 handled certain parts of the web better 
than does the 7-series of Window-Eyes. I.e, some links and buttons were 
recognized under WE6.1, whilst skipped under 7.2. That kind of breaks my 
acceptance for the fact of new web-design being the trouble in all cases. In 
some yes, but not in all.

I am not trying to dash anyone in here. Sure that GW is doing what they 
think to be the best. And, yes, there is issues with other screen readers as 
well. My point is simply, that browse mode is maybe the main issue with WE 
at the moment. That much of an issue, that it eventually could break GW's 
reputation in the market. The competitors have their first fixes out, hence 
they are able to have real-life testing, bug discovery and fixing done - at 
the moment. GW might likely be doing a lot in their lab, but has so far got 
nothing out the door. The moment they get started on the real-life testing 
process, the competitors will be at least one head in front. I am old 
enough, to remember the way things turned out back in the 80's. IBM. That 
was the big name, back then. When working in the school for the blind 
locally, I used to tell people, if they would like to have a computer that 
faced little as possible for trouble, they'd have to make sure of getting an 
IBM-compatible one. Whenever someone called us with a computer-problem, one 
of the first things we made sure of, was that the computer in question was 
close to fully IBM-compatible. Then, in the early 90's, IBM released some 
new models, that broke their own standard. That is, the computers simply did 
not stick to the IBM-standard. They did so, at the same time as they tried 
to introduce the world to OS2. Having a new interface, on a computer that 
did not stick to the standard that had come to be known as rock-solid, 
challenged IBM. At the same time, Microsoft (who for years had been the big 
competitor of IBM) came out with the first version of Windows. Although 
being quite buggy, and totally new for the comunity, at least it stuck to 
the compatibility, kept up with the stuff weknow as standard computers, and 
got people moving. Do I need to tell you who of IBM and Microsoft pulled the 
straw?

Windows itself, carries its own story. Why is it, that very few people ever 
got their hands on Windows2000? Why did Windows98 and XP get the most widely 
used OS's ever seen? And why did Vista never last long, quickly being 
outranged by Windows7? It all cooks down to a matter of functionality. 
Windows2000 and Vista; they both faced too many stability issues. People did 
not like that. People insisted on a stabil alternative, even forcing 
Microsoft to keep XP in business for several extra years. Simply because it 
was a more stabil alternative.

My point? Well, at the moment things kind of work, to some degree, 
sometimes, with whatever trickiness might be faced, for Window-Eyes. And 
long as that is the case, we could sit down, patiently thinking that 'oh, 
well, things will just be sorted out'. But I guess, that was the way IBM was 
doing, back then in the late 80s, and early 90s. And where are they these 
days? They don't even have their original name. Sure none of us would like 
to see GW and WE loosing out. I started to use WE when 6.1 was around, and 
clearly saw it as the best and most powerful screen reader around. When 7 
came out, offering scripting capabilities, I saw the great potentials for 
the screen reader to keep its position as the best and most stabil on the 
market. Yet the many cases of instability, loose of speech and crashes that 
I am facing ever so frequently here; compared with what I see other users 
report... And, at the same time, the competitors have fixes for things like 
browse mode... OK, not bug free. But honestly, Window-Eyes as it stands 
today, is not bug free either. It just is behind when comes to internet 
support. And what do we hear? Well, recently Firefox 4 was released. That 
broke some features of Window-Eyes. Agreed, that was not GW's fault, and 
they are to be commended for immediately jump onto the matter, trying to get 
it fixed. Yet for weeks now, we have heard that things are fixed 
(hopefully), and will be out in the next version of Window-Eyes. When? How 
many new versions of Firefox will be out prior? See my point? The 
competitors at least get things out, get things moving, get their users 
working. A bit buggy, OK, but again, buggy or not at all? How long can 
Window-Eyes stand as the best alternative, if the competitors handles what 
Window-Eyes does not. Today it stands; but tomorrow? Next week? Next year? 
How long can you keep your car running, just telling it, that we will put on 
some gas, whenever we reach a gas station? At some point, be it now or 
later, the market expects fixes. At some point at least something has to go 
out the door.

If it was only browse mode. Unfortunately, I find it is more of a general 
loose of stability. As I mentioned, there is all the loosing of speech. 
Definitely, it has something to do with quick navigation. Try to Alt-Tab too 
quickly through a good handful of open windows. Just to give one example of 
cases where the speech synth goes for his lunch. Scripts? Oh yes, they could 
cause some of the instability issues. But what about the issues that are 
around even when you turn off all scripts? And all of this adds up, making 
the big question come out again: How solid is Window-Eyes, as per date, in 
2011? Why for instance, is it that whenever Window-Eyes goes for its 
vaccation, you in 98 percent of the cases can easily start NVDA? NVDA, which 
is a free software, will run when the expensive Window-Eyes strikes? How 
solid is that? I know, that is a challenge for the techy guys at GW. And 
maybe there is no fix around it right now. But it still is timely to point 
it out, so as to have them focus and address the matter. That does not say, 
that anyone is criticizing, or down-grading the product or people behind. 
Yet, you sometimes wonder, why things seem to be that much more complicated 
for the staff at GW, than for the others. If noone had a fix, or only really 
limited fixes, you could have told it to be a matter that  currently could 
not be handled. But when the others can, and GW tell their users that they 
cannot do it well enough to present the users any solution; I do hold it is 
in its place to raise a few questions.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kevin Huber" <huber.kev...@gmail.com>
To: "gw-info" <gw-info@gwmicro.com>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and Web 
Browsing)


Hi:
I think that sometimes, when we get frustrated about GW Micro taking a
seemingly long time to implement features that they have promised,
(I.E. a fix for Browse Mode), we forget that nobody really knows what
goes on behind the scenes at GW Micro.  We don't know how much
programming has to be done to implement the features that we want and
need, and how much testing needs to be done to make sure they function
properly.  Those of us who have experience with programming, know that
writing a program and testing it and then debugging it can be a very
long process, especially if the task which the program is supposed to
perform is a complex one.  So while we need to keep letting GW Micro
know what features are important to us in future versions of
Window-eyes, we need to be patient, no matter how difficult that might
be.
Kevin Huber

On 6/13/11, David <eleph...@tele2.no> wrote:
Don't think that anyone here is talking about 'rushing' anything. Neither 
in
this discussion, or the similar ones, that have been on the list for ever 
so
long, when comes to the browse mode rewrite.

There is a couple of things, that I am sure, we ALL will agree on. 1st, 
we
don't want GW to rush anything out the door, before it is solidly ready.
2nd, we don't want to pay for any half-done job; and so appriciate the 
fact
that several of the upgrades are being released as free-of-charge ones. 
3rd,
we still want, and need, well even should have our rights in expecting, 
that
Window-Eyes will stay up-to-date, and being reliable.

What I think many a user is wondering, is how come that the browse mode 
has
not been updated, since it has been promised for a long time, and the 
need
for an update is getting rather obvious for those of us who do more like
80-plus percent of our computing on the net these days. The question, I
think, even becomes all the more obvious, due to the fact of GW telling 
us
over and over again, how closely they are working with companies like
Microsoft. OK, Microsoft is not liable for each and every one of the
billions of web sites out there, neither are any screen reader 
manufacturer
in full control of new html or the like standards. Yet, since the other
manufacturers have managed to keep their web-utility updated, and hence 
to
some extend outrange GW's product as per date, it is timely to ask what 
is
so complicated that GW is not willing to let out the door any updates. 
They
started, true enough, to talk about a rewrite back when WE7 was released. 
It
being two or three years ago, still it has been a good amount of time, to 
do
such a rewrite. Maybe they are working on it. We don't know, as they have
been little willing to come out yet, with any information as to what the
progress on the matter is. And, I guess, somehow that even gears up some 
of
the frustration, of many a user; since it easily could tell a story about
the GW staff not even looking at the matter. Yet, I am sure they are.
Seems - based on some earlier comments from that corner - that they have 
had
a challenge in knowing exactly how to handle certain parts of the matter.

Even the most loyal user of WE, will have to agree, that few things in 
the
computer world changes more rapidly, and frequently, than the internet. 
And
many a user will agree, that browse mode is long time overdue. None of 
this
conflicts with the fact, that we want a solid, fully working, stabil,
well-tested and reliable product. It simply just means, that with a 
browse
mode, that skips a third of the links, onclicks, buttons and so forth on 
web
pages, we no longer can claim WE to be the most stabil and reliable 
product
on the market. Be it as stabil as it wants, in Office 2010, Itunes, Vista 
or
whatever - if it cannot read the webpages correctly and reliably, I do 
claim
a screen reader is not much for a market leader these days.

Now, of course, many users will pop in here, claiming they have no 
trouble
in browsing the web. To all of those, let me express my heartfelt
congratulations. Long as the screen reader does what you expect, and is
reliable in its functionality, I really say you are lucky, and that is
great. On the other hand, too many a message on this list, has denoted 
the
fact, there is enough of examples of websites, that are totally - or at
least close thereto - useless with Window-Eyes. Give you but one example,
which a ton of people will be familiar with, and which was pointed out
earlier in this thread. If you try to send money, for instance pay for an
EBay winning, using Paypal. OK, the webpage itself might read kind of 
well
enough. But if you tab through the page, hoping for a place where it says
things like 'confirm payment', or 'pay now'; you soon will be 
disappointed.
The correct place to hit your Enter-key, would be where it simply says
'button'. Poof! How are we to know, that 'button' means 'confirm 
payment',
and not 'go and have a cup of chocolate'. (smiile) It would be easy 
enough
to give a long line of examples of websites, that gives similar 
'half-way'
informations. Let's now add on all the websites that do not even read at
all, or at least that brokenly that you would have been doing better 
never
visiting that site. Go then ahead, talking about the fact of Window-Eyes
hanging every ten time, you open a web page, causing whatever for a 
problem
of the user you might experience. Well, go on with the list, and you will
see, why a lot of people ask things to be fixed. We don't want it to be
rushed, unstabil or untested; we want it to be FIXED - that is all.

If there was no fix around, well by then, GW or whoever go ahead and tell 
us
that it will be fixed in the future. Go on, sing that song, till our ears
fall off, or till Eloquence knows the phrase well enough to studder it 
out
everytime browse mode hangs on our computer. The reality though, is that
there is some kind of fix around. And that is called: USE ANOTHER SCREEN
READER FOR YOUR BROWSING SESSIONS... Surely, that is not what GW wants us 
to
do, and I assure you, noone of the thousands of users around the globe 
wants
to play-and-fool around with more than one screen reader at a time 
either.
That is EXACTLY why its been stressed over and over again, the need for 
an
update. And since other manufacturers have been able to solve the
challenges - at least to some better degree than what GW can show up at 
the
moment - I really think the users are in their right, of asking what is 
so
complicated that GW cannot solve it at the moment.

Oh yes, we have heard about the new html standard that is going to come
around. Well, let me ask you guys: When Office 2007 came out, did GW sit
down and tell their users that 'we will get Office support running, once
Office 2010 is out'? Or, did they leave their customers behind, when 
Windows
7 was released, simply because Windows 8 is already on the engineers' 
slate?
NO! In all these cases, GW proudly anounced to the public, that they were
apparently the very first ones on the market, to have their users
up-to-date, fully in line with the current development on the market. My
point here is, why would we ever sit back and wait for some kind of new
standard to pop out, before an update of the browse mode? When the new
standard is released, there is simply just plans for a totally new 
version
of the standard, that will keep the engineers employed. That is business,
and it is reality. I really have a hard time, figuring when would be the
perfect time to release the new browse mode. There simply never will be. 
But
that doesn't say, that the users might be lacking, all the time you don't
get anything out the door. Don't please, GW staff, jump in here, telling 
the
good old story about the priorities. We know that one, and true some
priorities might be important. It is - for one thing - good that you let 
out
the version that supports Windows7, since it is really hard to find a new
computer these days with anything but that OS. And, the person that is
employed in a big company that has the bigg money to install the newest
Office suite on all their computers; well that user is overly happy since
you let out a version of WE, supporting Office 2010. Yet, how many a 
user,
do you think, has the money to pop out buying the newest Office? 
Specially
so, since they could import their old Office suite under the newer 
Windows.
Now then, compare that number, with the thousands of users, that are 
using
the Internet each day - many times each day - and are fully depending on
that feature, so as to handle their day-today activities; or even make
themselves a living or job. I don't need to much fantacy, let alone much 
for
experience of life, to realize which number will be the highest. And, I
don't have any trouble at all, in relating with the many users who are
frustrated about an ever-ongoing broken browse mode. NO! It is not 
working.
I have to close and reopen webpages several times an hour, just because
Eloquence packs up his Window-Eyes suitcase, and goes for his many fancy
cruises out there on cyberspace; leaving me at home, with an ice cream in 
my
hand. Smile. And, don't tell me to use another voice like Dectalk please, 
as
the non-US Window-Eyes I am forced to use, hasn't had such capabilities
since version 7. Besides, I am about to claim that it is no matter of
Eloquence, rather a matter of Window-Eyes itself.

GW, what good is in a computer these days, if it cannot reliably go on 
the
internet. Which job, even in the biggest companies, will be all that 
solely
relying on support for the newest and fanciest version of Office or
whatever, that such things should down-prioritize the need for internet
support? Stabile internet support. Reliable internet support. Correct
internet support.

If GW really wants to keep their position as the market leader of the 
screen
reader comunity, and if they want to stand behind their frequently 
declaring
Window-Eyes to be the most 'rock solid' reader on the market - well in 
such
a case, they HAVE TO get browse mode fixed. OK, at the moment, people can
somehow live with it. At the moment, people will find Window-Eyes stabil 
and
reliable enough on all other matters. At the moment, people will still 
sit
back patiently listen to the old song of the bird, twittering about 
Version
8. At the moment! But how long does a moment last? How long will it take,
before Window-Eyes is no longer the most rock-solid screen reader around?
How long will it take, before the users rather will deal with some buggy
stuff from the competitors, since they at least will get their hands on 
the
web information with other products? And, How long will it take before 
the
competitors have straightened out their bugs; with GW not even having out 
a
Beta of their new version? How many users can just sit down waiting for
promises? You cannot have your new job, simply based on promises. You 
cannot
do your bill payment in the bank, based on promises. You cannot hand in 
your
school examine just based on promises. See how many phone companies, 
would
let me have my phone running, if I told them there will be money paid, 
when
Window-Eyes 8 is out - sometime down the road. Or, which employer would 
let
you have the job, if he had to feed you sandwiches from now on, till WE8 
is
out, just to make you busy with something? Yes, some of this is 
exergerated
a bit, to stress the point. But most of it, is the real matter of fact.

As for the WE7.5, I cannot speak too much - since I am forced to use a
non-US version of WE7.2, and there still is no update around for that 
one.
Yet another thing GW will have to stress a bit, if they want to keep the
market lead. It surprises me, that it takes several months to translate 
an
update of WE. Honestly, there is not all that much for a difference, or 
all
that many phrases to translate. Still, from what I read on the list here, 
I
have a bit of trouble, when some people say they'd rather have a new 
version
when it is ready. Seems there is a good deal of bugs, and I guess there
always will be. Yet, I do still wonder, what in version 7.5 will be worth 
my
money, once it has been translated and released locally. I really have 
seen
little information that would convince me, to spend all that money. What
would get my wallet moving though, would be the day when a reliable fix 
is
out for the browse mode. A fix that would save me frustration, and a ton 
of
time, in having to close, refind, reopen, hope-for-the-best when trying 
to
lookup information or doing other activities on the net.


no no no, don't rush it until it is ready. Simply just get it ready.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tyler Juranek" <tylerpolka...@gmail.com>
To: "Chris Hill" <hil...@earthlink.net>; "gwmicro" <gw-info@gwmicro.com>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and 
Web
Browsing)


Hi,
I'm sure GW is working hard.
Trust me, they want to do it right, so let them do it right.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a version of window-eyes
that works reliably on the web, then a piece of junk that GW just goes
rush rush rush and releases.
That's my opinion on this thread.
Take Care.

On 6/12/11, Chris Hill <hil...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Yes, but at least voiceover generally works, even on my puny iphone 
3gs.
  Delete even speaks every character I delete, unlike window-eyes and
office 2007.  I can find pages that work on my iphone better than on
window-eyes, and getting the job done is what this is about.  Frankly,
the previous release was like the guy who drops his keys in the grass 
in
the dark and goes looking for them in the street under a street light
because he can't see in the dark.  I don't know who gw was trying to
impress, maybe they had a possible big customer who didn't like the way
it looked, but I sure would have rather received improvements on the 
web
where I'm spending more and more of my computer time.



On 6/12/2011 22:47, Juan Gonzalez wrote:
I know that I will regret this, but you need to stop and think about
what you are saying. lets take apple as an example. there voice over
only provides speech for one browser. you have no choices. GW and 
other
windows screen readers are trying to give you choices so your not 
stuck
with one browser. Now apple only having to work with one browser still
has problems. now try to support two browsers and try to add more on 
the
list. we should be glad that GW and other screen readers have given us
choices. GW is working hard to gives something that will work instead 
of
putting something that can support it and not work correctly. do you
want to use up all your free upgrades and then have them charge for 
the
real fix? I rather them come out with fixes and be free upgrades but
that is a different story. Just give them time and let them do it 
right.

Juan Gonzalez
Need training at an affordable price?
Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com <http://www.BlindAccessTraining.com>
to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA.
You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on the
web design link.

*From:* Jacob Schmude <mailto:j.schm...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:35 PM
*To:* gw-info@gwmicro.com <mailto:gw-info@gwmicro.com>
*Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes
and Web Browsing)

And why bother with that when other products just work? Again, what
about pages where no alternative exists? I'm not necessarily intending
to raise problems with specific web sites, but merely to provide
examples. A lot of pages that have no alternative are internal or else
private (bank web pages for example) so I can't exactly give them as
examples. You can suggest all the alternatives you'd like, but when I
hit a page that doesn't have one, I'm still left with the bug and no
workaround where window-eyes is concerned.
Still, I'm glad one of my objectives has been achieved: to spark a 
large
discussion out in the open where it is much harder to ignore. Support
requests and bug reports can be filed away, but it's more difficult to
do that with list discussions as, even if the discussion is removed 
from
the archives, those who participate will remember and know that it was
deleted. I have a certain amount of loyalty to GW Micro, if I didn't 
I'd
just ignore Window-Eyes' deficiencies and leave it at that. Sometimes,
things must be dragged out no matter how unpleasant, and I think this 
is
long past due. The web is important, more so today than ever before, 
and
if we as blind people expect to keep up then we need to make sure the
products on which we rely are able to do so with us. I am not willing 
to
be relegated to the 90's where we needed text-only web pages because 
our
screen readers couldn't keep up. I've been there before, and I'm not
going back.

On 6/12/2011 20:25, Juan Gonzalez wrote:
as far as youtube is concerned there is an accessible version and you
can find the link at blindaccesstraining.com under the helpful
resources

Juan Gonzalez
Need training at an affordable price?
Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com 
<http://www.BlindAccessTraining.com>
to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA.
You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on 
the
web design link.

*From:* Jacob Schmude <mailto:j.schm...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:21 PM
*To:* gw-info@gwmicro.com <mailto:gw-info@gwmicro.com>
*Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes
and Web Browsing)

Doublas,
Do you really think I haven't tried all of that? The mouse keys don't
work for those links, not in Firefox. They do in IE, but that
particular problem has only ever appeared in Firefox. Google was an
*example*. Yes, you can use labs.google.com, but what am I supposed 
to
do on Youtube? On Paypal? Wikipedia or other Wikis? How about
specialized pages that I have to work with that have no alternative? 
I
don't have the time to go looking for workarounds anymore. It would 
be
one thing if these were general workarounds that all screen reader
users needed to do, but they're not, and when the choice is find a
workaround for almost everything I need to do or switch screen
readers, it's not much of a choice. I have used window-eyes for 
nearly
10 years, so please give me credit that I've tried the obvious... 
over
and over again. I like a lot about Window-Eyes, but in the past few
versions, the bugs have just become more of a problem than the
features can offset. I'll take a few less bling and a bit more work,
thanks.



On 6/12/2011 18:12, douglas rudolph wrote:
hey man, uhhh, i really don't know where to start. you don't know 
how
to work around these issues obviously, very simple fixes i might
add.. your google problem use
labs.google.com/accible, or google.com/custom, and your links that
dont' show as links such as on facebook with the status, link, 
photo,
video, etc, use your mouse simulation keys... easy fix
.This email may contain personal identifyable information. Copy,
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prohibited, unless you are the intended recipiant of this email, and
this intended recipiant only. If this is not the intended recipiant,
then you are requested to delete this message immediately and notify
sender.
Douglas Rudolph
Tel: 1306-565-2056
Cell: 1306-209-2823
Email: doug.c...@gmail.com <mailto:doug.c...@gmail.com>

    ----- Original Message -----
    *From:* Jacob Schmude <mailto:j.schm...@gmail.com>
    *To:* gw-info@gwmicro.com <mailto:gw-info@gwmicro.com>
    *Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:03 PM
    *Subject:* A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window 
Eyes
    and Web Browsing)

    Hi
    ** Warning: Begin a sort of rant **
    Unfortunately, the Firefox issues have been in Window-Eyes for
    years. Essentially, dynamic content causes the entire page to be
    refreshed. Google's edit field causes the page to change as you
    type in order for it to suggest search results, and this 
triggers
    window-eyes' page reload behavior. We have been promised a fix
    for this for years and have never gotten it and, while I don't
    know about anyone else, I'm losing my patience with window-eyes
    on the web with Firefox in particular, but with IE as well.
    Window-Eyes' support for Firefox is a joke. Standard elements
    such as onclicks are not identified (most other screen readers
    call these clickables), image links are not identified as links,
    reviewing edited text doesn't work, the auto completion and
    history list in the address bar do not work properly (they
    briefly flash in Braille but never speak), flash within Firefox
    is not accessible, mouseOvers and other dynamic content do not
    update the buffer or when they do you are thrown to the top, and
    I could go on. These are things we've been promised fixes for,
    and what do we get? New whiz-bang features with old bugs.
    Internet Explorer 9 is not much better (GW, did you even test 
IE9
    at all?). Dynamic pages with hidden elements are not properly
    rendered (the hidden elements are shown when they should not be,
    have a look at Gmail or Google Voice's pages for that one), 
There
    are random headings and lists with 0 items inserted everywhere
    while real headings are not identified (blindbargains.com for
    that last), entering text in forms somehow fails to allow all
    typed characters through (I'm a fast typist). Each and every one
    of these problems I've listed, the free screen reader NVDA has
    overcome (most of these it never exhibited at all). Jaws, that
    other screen reader, isn't far behind and Baum's Cobra doesn't
    have these troubles either. Quite frankly, given the importance
    of the internet, this is unacceptable and, as a Window-Eyes
    customer for years, I feel more than a little cheated. To GW:
    Don't follow FS down the path of release release release but
    don't fix. I don't care if it takes two years for a new version,
    as long as that new version of Window-Eyes works to the best of
    your abilities. This is not the best and, if you're going to 
brag
    about your IE9 support, you'd better make blasted sure it works
    as advertised. The 7.5 release only had one beta cycle. One.
    Let's look at this honestly for a second, no marketing, no pr.
    What does 7.5 offer over 7.2 that is worth paying $175 for? A 
new
    set file format? Not worth that much. A few new scripting
    functions? Again, not worth that. Cascading settings (a nice
    feature and long overdue, but worth $175?). A rename of scripts
    to app (boy, that must've taken a lot of effort there).
    Meanwhile, long standing bugs go unfixed, and the web is just 
one
    area. I could go on but, these days, I'm not sure that GW Micro
    really care. I can't tell off the top of my head exactly how 
much
    I've put into window-eyes over the years since I've owned it, 
and
    I'm now using NVDA instead because it's less buggy and actually
    allows me to get real work done. That's just not acceptable QA 
in
    my book, and I can't in good conscience put my hard-earned cash
    behind a product with this many problems. I apologize for the
    harshness, but I've reported many of these within the past
    several years and have never seen one fix. Perhaps a little
    harshness will get my point across a bit better. I leave that up
    to you, GW Micro.

    ** end rant **
    I've never seen the IE8 hanging issue but I'm well familiar with
    the rest of the problems you're having. You're not alone.

    On 6/12/2011 14:58, Cory Martin wrote:
    Hello,
    Just wanted to report a couple of issues that I've noticed with
    Window Eyes with web browsing:

    With Internet Explorer version 8:
    Firstly there seem to be issues with Google, specifically after
    doing a search, for some reason browse mode doesn't come back
    on. It can be enabled with the usual command, however it's the
    only site which doesn't seem to bring browse mode back on after
    entering a search string.
    More difficult to identify however is a strange issue which
    seems to affect Internet Explorer where when the browser is
    first opened it just hangs, yet opening a second instance of it
    may work just fine. I've tried resetting it in the advanced tab
    under internet options, as well as using C-Cleaner to remove
    extra files, as well as clearing personal data. The issue
    persists, yet with other screen readers it doesn't seem to
    happen. This does not seem to be a problem with Firefox.

    With Mozilla Firefox latest version:
    I switched to Firefox full time after having the unsolvable
    hanging problem with Internet Explorer. However with Firefox,
    there seems to be issues with staying in forms for entering
    text. For example if I'm trying to enter a word in to Google it
    keeps dropping me back in to browse mode every time I press the
    space bar. I've had to use notepad to type out my search string
    and then paste it in to the browser. I'm not sure which is more
    annoying.

    With either browser:
    When trying to arrow arrow around in edit boxes on web pages in
    both Internet Explorer or Firefox, Window Eyes just makes a 
ding
    sound when trying to review text entered. It is necessary to
    drop back in to browse mode to review what's been entered and
    then re-enter the edit box and re-position the cursor to where
    one wants to correct something based on best guess, or by
    cutting the text to notepad and editing it there.

    Does anyone have any experience with these problems to either
    confirm or deny them? Also and more importantly, does anyone
    know of work-arounds to these issues?

    Thanks,
    Cory
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