Yeah! There were people who wanted to hang Jonathan Mosen when he left
Humanware to work for FS. In the real corporate world, this kind of
thing happens all the time.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: David Tanner [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 9:23 PM
To: Baracco, Andrew W; [email protected]
Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and
Web Browsing)
Don't you know you can get a lot of enemies saying this kind of thing.
Brand is accepted as mor important in the access technology field of
blindness.
It isn't nice to talk about the problems with access technology
software.
The developers will hate you because you criticised their work, and they
will take it all very seriously.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Baracco, Andrew W"<[email protected]>
To:<[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 12:46 PM
Subject: RE: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and
Web
Browsing)
Kevin, I keep reading this kind of thing over and over again. I don't
need to know what goes on at General Motors if I own one of their cars.
I need a dependable car. That's all I care about. If the car is a
lemon, I don't care about the corporate culture or priorities. The
marketplace doesn't work like that in any arena other than access tech.
If a product doesn't do what you need it to do, you spend your money
elsewhere. It's only in the access tech arena that companies can get
away with praying on our sympathies. Many of us have been loyal
customers for many years, and I think that we have a right to tell it
like it is. We make financial sacrifices to buy and maintain these
products, and we have the right to be upset if they do not perform the
way we need them to. And, it is beneficial to companies like GW to know
how their customers feel about their products.
Andy
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Huber [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 7:48 AM
To: gw-info
Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes and
Web Browsing)
Hi:
I think that sometimes, when we get frustrated about GW Micro taking a
seemingly long time to implement features that they have promised,
(I.E. a fix for Browse Mode), we forget that nobody really knows what
goes on behind the scenes at GW Micro. We don't know how much
programming has to be done to implement the features that we want and
need, and how much testing needs to be done to make sure they function
properly. Those of us who have experience with programming, know that
writing a program and testing it and then debugging it can be a very
long process, especially if the task which the program is supposed to
perform is a complex one. So while we need to keep letting GW Micro
know what features are important to us in future versions of
Window-eyes, we need to be patient, no matter how difficult that might
be.
Kevin Huber
On 6/13/11, David<[email protected]> wrote:
Don't think that anyone here is talking about 'rushing' anything.
Neither in
this discussion, or the similar ones, that have been on the list for
ever so
long, when comes to the browse mode rewrite.
There is a couple of things, that I am sure, we ALL will agree on.
1st, we
don't want GW to rush anything out the door, before it is solidly
ready.
2nd, we don't want to pay for any half-done job; and so appriciate the
fact
that several of the upgrades are being released as free-of-charge
ones. 3rd,
we still want, and need, well even should have our rights in
expecting, that
Window-Eyes will stay up-to-date, and being reliable.
What I think many a user is wondering, is how come that the browse
mode has
not been updated, since it has been promised for a long time, and the
need
for an update is getting rather obvious for those of us who do more
like
80-plus percent of our computing on the net these days. The question,
I
think, even becomes all the more obvious, due to the fact of GW
telling us
over and over again, how closely they are working with companies like
Microsoft. OK, Microsoft is not liable for each and every one of the
billions of web sites out there, neither are any screen reader
manufacturer
in full control of new html or the like standards. Yet, since the
other
manufacturers have managed to keep their web-utility updated, and
hence to
some extend outrange GW's product as per date, it is timely to ask
what is
so complicated that GW is not willing to let out the door any updates.
They
started, true enough, to talk about a rewrite back when WE7 was
released. It
being two or three years ago, still it has been a good amount of time,
to do
such a rewrite. Maybe they are working on it. We don't know, as they
have
been little willing to come out yet, with any information as to what
the
progress on the matter is. And, I guess, somehow that even gears up
some of
the frustration, of many a user; since it easily could tell a story
about
the GW staff not even looking at the matter. Yet, I am sure they are.
Seems - based on some earlier comments from that corner - that they
have had
a challenge in knowing exactly how to handle certain parts of the
matter.
Even the most loyal user of WE, will have to agree, that few things in
the
computer world changes more rapidly, and frequently, than the
internet. And
many a user will agree, that browse mode is long time overdue. None of
this
conflicts with the fact, that we want a solid, fully working, stabil,
well-tested and reliable product. It simply just means, that with a
browse
mode, that skips a third of the links, onclicks, buttons and so forth
on web
pages, we no longer can claim WE to be the most stabil and reliable
product
on the market. Be it as stabil as it wants, in Office 2010, Itunes,
Vista or
whatever - if it cannot read the webpages correctly and reliably, I do
claim
a screen reader is not much for a market leader these days.
Now, of course, many users will pop in here, claiming they have no
trouble
in browsing the web. To all of those, let me express my heartfelt
congratulations. Long as the screen reader does what you expect, and
is
reliable in its functionality, I really say you are lucky, and that is
great. On the other hand, too many a message on this list, has denoted
the
fact, there is enough of examples of websites, that are totally - or
at
least close thereto - useless with Window-Eyes. Give you but one
example,
which a ton of people will be familiar with, and which was pointed out
earlier in this thread. If you try to send money, for instance pay for
an
EBay winning, using Paypal. OK, the webpage itself might read kind of
well
enough. But if you tab through the page, hoping for a place where it
says
things like 'confirm payment', or 'pay now'; you soon will be
disappointed.
The correct place to hit your Enter-key, would be where it simply says
'button'. Poof! How are we to know, that 'button' means 'confirm
payment',
and not 'go and have a cup of chocolate'. (smiile) It would be easy
enough
to give a long line of examples of websites, that gives similar
'half-way'
informations. Let's now add on all the websites that do not even read
at
all, or at least that brokenly that you would have been doing better
never
visiting that site. Go then ahead, talking about the fact of
Window-Eyes
hanging every ten time, you open a web page, causing whatever for a
problem
of the user you might experience. Well, go on with the list, and you
will
see, why a lot of people ask things to be fixed. We don't want it to
be
rushed, unstabil or untested; we want it to be FIXED - that is all.
If there was no fix around, well by then, GW or whoever go ahead and
tell us
that it will be fixed in the future. Go on, sing that song, till our
ears
fall off, or till Eloquence knows the phrase well enough to studder it
out
everytime browse mode hangs on our computer. The reality though, is
that
there is some kind of fix around. And that is called: USE ANOTHER
SCREEN
READER FOR YOUR BROWSING SESSIONS... Surely, that is not what GW wants
us to
do, and I assure you, noone of the thousands of users around the globe
wants
to play-and-fool around with more than one screen reader at a time
either.
That is EXACTLY why its been stressed over and over again, the need
for an
update. And since other manufacturers have been able to solve the
challenges - at least to some better degree than what GW can show up
at the
moment - I really think the users are in their right, of asking what
is so
complicated that GW cannot solve it at the moment.
Oh yes, we have heard about the new html standard that is going to
come
around. Well, let me ask you guys: When Office 2007 came out, did GW
sit
down and tell their users that 'we will get Office support running,
once
Office 2010 is out'? Or, did they leave their customers behind, when
Windows
7 was released, simply because Windows 8 is already on the engineers'
slate?
NO! In all these cases, GW proudly anounced to the public, that they
were
apparently the very first ones on the market, to have their users
up-to-date, fully in line with the current development on the market.
My
point here is, why would we ever sit back and wait for some kind of
new
standard to pop out, before an update of the browse mode? When the new
standard is released, there is simply just plans for a totally new
version
of the standard, that will keep the engineers employed. That is
business,
and it is reality. I really have a hard time, figuring when would be
the
perfect time to release the new browse mode. There simply never will
be. But
that doesn't say, that the users might be lacking, all the time you
don't
get anything out the door. Don't please, GW staff, jump in here,
telling the
good old story about the priorities. We know that one, and true some
priorities might be important. It is - for one thing - good that you
let out
the version that supports Windows7, since it is really hard to find a
new
computer these days with anything but that OS. And, the person that is
employed in a big company that has the bigg money to install the
newest
Office suite on all their computers; well that user is overly happy
since
you let out a version of WE, supporting Office 2010. Yet, how many a
user,
do you think, has the money to pop out buying the newest Office?
Specially
so, since they could import their old Office suite under the newer
Windows.
Now then, compare that number, with the thousands of users, that are
using
the Internet each day - many times each day - and are fully depending
on
that feature, so as to handle their day-today activities; or even make
themselves a living or job. I don't need to much fantacy, let alone
much for
experience of life, to realize which number will be the highest. And,
I
don't have any trouble at all, in relating with the many users who are
frustrated about an ever-ongoing broken browse mode. NO! It is not
working.
I have to close and reopen webpages several times an hour, just
because
Eloquence packs up his Window-Eyes suitcase, and goes for his many
fancy
cruises out there on cyberspace; leaving me at home, with an ice cream
in my
hand. Smile. And, don't tell me to use another voice like Dectalk
please, as
the non-US Window-Eyes I am forced to use, hasn't had such
capabilities
since version 7. Besides, I am about to claim that it is no matter of
Eloquence, rather a matter of Window-Eyes itself.
GW, what good is in a computer these days, if it cannot reliably go on
the
internet. Which job, even in the biggest companies, will be all that
solely
relying on support for the newest and fanciest version of Office or
whatever, that such things should down-prioritize the need for
internet
support? Stabile internet support. Reliable internet support. Correct
internet support.
If GW really wants to keep their position as the market leader of the
screen
reader comunity, and if they want to stand behind their frequently
declaring
Window-Eyes to be the most 'rock solid' reader on the market - well in
such
a case, they HAVE TO get browse mode fixed. OK, at the moment, people
can
somehow live with it. At the moment, people will find Window-Eyes
stabil and
reliable enough on all other matters. At the moment, people will still
sit
back patiently listen to the old song of the bird, twittering about
Version
8. At the moment! But how long does a moment last? How long will it
take,
before Window-Eyes is no longer the most rock-solid screen reader
around?
How long will it take, before the users rather will deal with some
buggy
stuff from the competitors, since they at least will get their hands
on the
web information with other products? And, How long will it take before
the
competitors have straightened out their bugs; with GW not even having
out a
Beta of their new version? How many users can just sit down waiting
for
promises? You cannot have your new job, simply based on promises. You
cannot
do your bill payment in the bank, based on promises. You cannot hand
in your
school examine just based on promises. See how many phone companies,
would
let me have my phone running, if I told them there will be money paid,
when
Window-Eyes 8 is out - sometime down the road. Or, which employer
would let
you have the job, if he had to feed you sandwiches from now on, till
WE8 is
out, just to make you busy with something? Yes, some of this is
exergerated
a bit, to stress the point. But most of it, is the real matter of
fact.
As for the WE7.5, I cannot speak too much - since I am forced to use a
non-US version of WE7.2, and there still is no update around for that
one.
Yet another thing GW will have to stress a bit, if they want to keep
the
market lead. It surprises me, that it takes several months to
translate an
update of WE. Honestly, there is not all that much for a difference,
or all
that many phrases to translate. Still, from what I read on the list
here, I
have a bit of trouble, when some people say they'd rather have a new
version
when it is ready. Seems there is a good deal of bugs, and I guess
there
always will be. Yet, I do still wonder, what in version 7.5 will be
worth my
money, once it has been translated and released locally. I really have
seen
little information that would convince me, to spend all that money.
What
would get my wallet moving though, would be the day when a reliable
fix is
out for the browse mode. A fix that would save me frustration, and a
ton of
time, in having to close, refind, reopen, hope-for-the-best when
trying to
lookup information or doing other activities on the net.
no no no, don't rush it until it is ready. Simply just get it ready.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tyler Juranek"<[email protected]>
To: "Chris Hill"<[email protected]>; "gwmicro"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2011 5:28 AM
Subject: Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window Eyes
and Web
Browsing)
Hi,
I'm sure GW is working hard.
Trust me, they want to do it right, so let them do it right.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a version of window-eyes
that works reliably on the web, then a piece of junk that GW just
goes
rush rush rush and releases.
That's my opinion on this thread.
Take Care.
On 6/12/11, Chris Hill<[email protected]> wrote:
Yes, but at least voiceover generally works, even on my puny iphone
3gs.
Delete even speaks every character I delete, unlike window-eyes
and
office 2007. I can find pages that work on my iphone better than on
window-eyes, and getting the job done is what this is about.
Frankly,
the previous release was like the guy who drops his keys in the
grass in
the dark and goes looking for them in the street under a street
light
because he can't see in the dark. I don't know who gw was trying to
impress, maybe they had a possible big customer who didn't like the
way
it looked, but I sure would have rather received improvements on the
web
where I'm spending more and more of my computer time.
On 6/12/2011 22:47, Juan Gonzalez wrote:
I know that I will regret this, but you need to stop and think
about
what you are saying. lets take apple as an example. there voice
over
only provides speech for one browser. you have no choices. GW and
other
windows screen readers are trying to give you choices so your not
stuck
with one browser. Now apple only having to work with one browser
still
has problems. now try to support two browsers and try to add more
on the
list. we should be glad that GW and other screen readers have given
us
choices. GW is working hard to gives something that will work
instead of
putting something that can support it and not work correctly. do
you
want to use up all your free upgrades and then have them charge for
the
real fix? I rather them come out with fixes and be free upgrades
but
that is a different story. Just give them time and let them do it
right.
Juan Gonzalez
Need training at an affordable price?
Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com
<http://www.BlindAccessTraining.com>
to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA.
You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on
the
web design link.
*From:* Jacob Schmude<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:35 PM
*To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window
Eyes
and Web Browsing)
And why bother with that when other products just work? Again, what
about pages where no alternative exists? I'm not necessarily
intending
to raise problems with specific web sites, but merely to provide
examples. A lot of pages that have no alternative are internal or
else
private (bank web pages for example) so I can't exactly give them
as
examples. You can suggest all the alternatives you'd like, but when
I
hit a page that doesn't have one, I'm still left with the bug and
no
workaround where window-eyes is concerned.
Still, I'm glad one of my objectives has been achieved: to spark a
large
discussion out in the open where it is much harder to ignore.
Support
requests and bug reports can be filed away, but it's more difficult
to
do that with list discussions as, even if the discussion is removed
from
the archives, those who participate will remember and know that it
was
deleted. I have a certain amount of loyalty to GW Micro, if I
didn't I'd
just ignore Window-Eyes' deficiencies and leave it at that.
Sometimes,
things must be dragged out no matter how unpleasant, and I think
this is
long past due. The web is important, more so today than ever
before, and
if we as blind people expect to keep up then we need to make sure
the
products on which we rely are able to do so with us. I am not
willing to
be relegated to the 90's where we needed text-only web pages
because our
screen readers couldn't keep up. I've been there before, and I'm
not
going back.
On 6/12/2011 20:25, Juan Gonzalez wrote:
as far as youtube is concerned there is an accessible version and
you
can find the link at blindaccesstraining.com under the helpful
resources
Juan Gonzalez
Need training at an affordable price?
Visit www.BlindAccessTraining.com
<http://www.BlindAccessTraining.com>
to learn how to use Window-eyes, JAWS, and NVDA.
You can also learn how to make your own web site when you click on
the
web design link.
*From:* Jacob Schmude<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 6:21 PM
*To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
*Subject:* Re: A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window
Eyes
and Web Browsing)
Doublas,
Do you really think I haven't tried all of that? The mouse keys
don't
work for those links, not in Firefox. They do in IE, but that
particular problem has only ever appeared in Firefox. Google was
an
*example*. Yes, you can use labs.google.com, but what am I
supposed to
do on Youtube? On Paypal? Wikipedia or other Wikis? How about
specialized pages that I have to work with that have no
alternative? I
don't have the time to go looking for workarounds anymore. It
would be
one thing if these were general workarounds that all screen reader
users needed to do, but they're not, and when the choice is find a
workaround for almost everything I need to do or switch screen
readers, it's not much of a choice. I have used window-eyes for
nearly
10 years, so please give me credit that I've tried the obvious...
over
and over again. I like a lot about Window-Eyes, but in the past
few
versions, the bugs have just become more of a problem than the
features can offset. I'll take a few less bling and a bit more
work,
thanks.
On 6/12/2011 18:12, douglas rudolph wrote:
hey man, uhhh, i really don't know where to start. you don't know
how
to work around these issues obviously, very simple fixes i might
add.. your google problem use
labs.google.com/accible, or google.com/custom, and your links
that
dont' show as links such as on facebook with the status, link,
photo,
video, etc, use your mouse simulation keys... easy fix
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Tel: 1306-565-2056
Cell: 1306-209-2823
Email: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Jacob Schmude<mailto:[email protected]>
*To:* [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
*Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:03 PM
*Subject:* A bit of a rant (was Re: Observations with Window
Eyes
and Web Browsing)
Hi
** Warning: Begin a sort of rant **
Unfortunately, the Firefox issues have been in Window-Eyes
for
years. Essentially, dynamic content causes the entire page to
be
refreshed. Google's edit field causes the page to change as
you
type in order for it to suggest search results, and this
triggers
window-eyes' page reload behavior. We have been promised a
fix
for this for years and have never gotten it and, while I
don't
know about anyone else, I'm losing my patience with
window-eyes
on the web with Firefox in particular, but with IE as well.
Window-Eyes' support for Firefox is a joke. Standard elements
such as onclicks are not identified (most other screen
readers
call these clickables), image links are not identified as
links,
reviewing edited text doesn't work, the auto completion and
history list in the address bar do not work properly (they
briefly flash in Braille but never speak), flash within
Firefox
is not accessible, mouseOvers and other dynamic content do
not
update the buffer or when they do you are thrown to the top,
and
I could go on. These are things we've been promised fixes
for,
and what do we get? New whiz-bang features with old bugs.
Internet Explorer 9 is not much better (GW, did you even test
IE9
at all?). Dynamic pages with hidden elements are not properly
rendered (the hidden elements are shown when they should not
be,
have a look at Gmail or Google Voice's pages for that one),
There
are random headings and lists with 0 items inserted
everywhere
while real headings are not identified (blindbargains.com for
that last), entering text in forms somehow fails to allow all
typed characters through (I'm a fast typist). Each and every
one
of these problems I've listed, the free screen reader NVDA
has
overcome (most of these it never exhibited at all). Jaws,
that
other screen reader, isn't far behind and Baum's Cobra
doesn't
have these troubles either. Quite frankly, given the
importance
of the internet, this is unacceptable and, as a Window-Eyes
customer for years, I feel more than a little cheated. To GW:
Don't follow FS down the path of release release release but
don't fix. I don't care if it takes two years for a new
version,
as long as that new version of Window-Eyes works to the best
of
your abilities. This is not the best and, if you're going to
brag
about your IE9 support, you'd better make blasted sure it
works
as advertised. The 7.5 release only had one beta cycle. One.
Let's look at this honestly for a second, no marketing, no
pr.
What does 7.5 offer over 7.2 that is worth paying $175 for? A
new
set file format? Not worth that much. A few new scripting
functions? Again, not worth that. Cascading settings (a nice
feature and long overdue, but worth $175?). A rename of
scripts
to app (boy, that must've taken a lot of effort there).
Meanwhile, long standing bugs go unfixed, and the web is just
one
area. I could go on but, these days, I'm not sure that GW
Micro
really care. I can't tell off the top of my head exactly how
much
I've put into window-eyes over the years since I've owned it,
and
I'm now using NVDA instead because it's less buggy and
actually
allows me to get real work done. That's just not acceptable
QA in
my book, and I can't in good conscience put my hard-earned
cash
behind a product with this many problems. I apologize for the
harshness, but I've reported many of these within the past
several years and have never seen one fix. Perhaps a little
harshness will get my point across a bit better. I leave that
up
to you, GW Micro.
** end rant **
I've never seen the IE8 hanging issue but I'm well familiar
with
the rest of the problems you're having. You're not alone.
On 6/12/2011 14:58, Cory Martin wrote:
Hello,
Just wanted to report a couple of issues that I've noticed
with
Window Eyes with web browsing:
With Internet Explorer version 8:
Firstly there seem to be issues with Google, specifically
after
doing a search, for some reason browse mode doesn't come
back
on. It can be enabled with the usual command, however it's
the
only site which doesn't seem to bring browse mode back on
after
entering a search string.
More difficult to identify however is a strange issue which
seems to affect Internet Explorer where when the browser is
first opened it just hangs, yet opening a second instance of
it
may work just fine. I've tried resetting it in the advanced
tab
under internet options, as well as using C-Cleaner to remove
extra files, as well as clearing personal data. The issue
persists, yet with other screen readers it doesn't seem to
happen. This does not seem to be a problem with Firefox.
With Mozilla Firefox latest version:
I switched to Firefox full time after having the unsolvable
hanging problem with Internet Explorer. However with
Firefox,
there seems to be issues with staying in forms for entering
text. For example if I'm trying to enter a word in to Google
it
keeps dropping me back in to browse mode every time I press
the
space bar. I've had to use notepad to type out my search
string
and then paste it in to the browser. I'm not sure which is
more
annoying.
With either browser:
When trying to arrow arrow around in edit boxes on web pages
in
both Internet Explorer or Firefox, Window Eyes just makes a
ding
sound when trying to review text entered. It is necessary to
drop back in to browse mode to review what's been entered
and
then re-enter the edit box and re-position the cursor to
where
one wants to correct something based on best guess, or by
cutting the text to notepad and editing it there.
Does anyone have any experience with these problems to
either
confirm or deny them? Also and more importantly, does anyone
know of work-arounds to these issues?
Thanks,
Cory
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If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original
sender
only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message
is
related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to
[email protected] so the entire list will receive it.
GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You
can
manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender
only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is
related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to
[email protected] so the entire list will receive it.
GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can
manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender
only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is
related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to
[email protected] so the entire list will receive it.
GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can
manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender
only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is
related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to
[email protected] so the entire list will receive it.
GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can
manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
