Hi Rick. I’m actually a proponent of window-eyes and it is my prefference so I’m not attempting to set up a “straw man.” I actually did in fact confront both the technical folks and some of the staff at the CA State agency both blind and sighted and got the same answer from all of them. They see no need to provide a second screen reader since Jaws works. Your anology of a guide dog versus a cane isn’t the same because although one is allowed a guide dog at a work place in some situations the use of the guide dog is restricted. For example, I must interview clients who are absolutely alergic to dogs. I can do no harm to my client so I must if I want to keep his her case put the dog somewhere in tie-down and probably use a cane if I need to be mobile. If Jaws and window-eyes do pretty much the same thing and neither has an adverse affect the state can or any company can choose which software they want to provide. The state doesn’t have to expose security by allowing you to carry there information on a laptop of your choosing with software of your choosing. The NFB gives away “free canes” but I like folding canes and the NFB cane is a straight cane. What to do? Can I demand a folding cane for free? Here’s an analogy I decide to work for the CHP (California Highway patrol” For the sake of this analogy unless the state is providing those Special cars for the blind and some other fancy tech let’s assume I can see. I like in fact prefer Ford products but the agency buys GM because they want to support that company or because they like a certain vehicle or perhaps they just got a really great price! Maybe my ford product runs faster more efficiently and has longer life but if I want to work for CHP I have to drive the car they issue to me not my preference. Both cars will take me from point a to point b allow me to carry offenders when necessary but I don’t like or use as well the GM model. Now Arizona might use Ford’s and I can go over there to work if I insist but CA says GM so until the tide changes that’s what I deal with if I work in CA. Note I don’t actually know which cars CA uses for CHP this is hypathetical. The reason blind organizations aren’t screaming about this is they are picking and choosing there battles. Which is more important with a 75% unemployment rate acquiring good employment for the most people possible or demanding a specific persons demands be met exactly. Consider the kendel how long have we been fighting over that and while it’s a good fight would you want to wait that long to get a job while the various parties haggle. That like the screen reader is a choice. I will do everything I can to make window-eyes more acceptible in the workplace whereever a blind person is employed but I need to be in a position where I can influence change not sitting at home arguing with hiring managers. And, some of the harshest critics I have met in CA of using window-eyes are the state employees who happen to be blind and have the power. Once in a while you might see someone who has it on a personal computer I’m not sure but even if you do those officials won’t tell me I can use window-eyes in my cubicle which is why I say when in Rome you do as the romans do and be greatful that our efforts have permitted a usable screen reader. Mike
From: RicksPlace Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:41 AM To: Michael Peterson Subject: Re: States that allow window-eyes Mike: You created a straw man with your example. You built a example of something, related it to the problem at hand and then by shooting down the original idea, by implication, shot down the actual idea. What employees wear is not the same as what they need to use for employment. This is a typical debate technique used by folks who want to convince other people of the merit of their argument without being able to present a real argument based on the facts of the original problem. In other words, you likely did not have a good example of the merit of allowing government to select winners and losers within a competitive industry. So you created an example of something you could use in place of that argument. In this case you used the fact that Government could control the dress code. The fault is, of course, a dress code is applied evenly to all employees and across all supplier industries and companies. It does not say you can only wear clothes made by one company or only purchassed at WallMart for example. That, i think, would be illegal and of course UnAmerican and UnEthical. A more apt example following your example might be that a State would not allow anyone who uses a cane or any other accessibility device to work in a government building because it would make management uncomfortable having a disabled person on their team. They could work there so long as nobody knew they were disabled and so long as each manager approved but the quote normal unquote people on the team as well as the manager should not be made to feel uncomfortable because there is someone on the team who is not like them. This is not a legal thing to do. The most extreme example I can think of would be that a blind person is legally allowed to take their guide dog into places where other animals would not be allowed for common sense reasons such as restaurants. Just because the bureaucrats are lazy and don't want to learn another Screen Reader they limit competition within the industry. Not for a good reason but just because they are lazy and don't want to have to do their homework. I see this attitude growing over the past decade and slowly, like the frog in the pot, we are getting boiled alive as each new year passes. I see very little serious push back by the dblind community - only the occasional law suit which takes years and then is usually resolved without a court decission. Rick USA ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Peterson To: Dave Bahr ; [email protected] Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 10:46 PM Subject: Re: States that allow window-eyes Hi Dave. Actually in this case the proper analogy might seem to be like work apparel. I enjoy wearing blue jeans or shorts and sandals but my employer says business aparel only if you want to work here. You can use any screen reader you want on your own time and you can in the private sector find an employer who allows you to use your preferred screen reader. When in rome however, one must do as the romans do. If I insist on wearing blue jeans sandals and shorts to work I might need to rethink what type of work I want to do. Perhaps Government or business are not work places I would enjoy working in. In my case I am attempting to become a Vocational Rehabilitation counselor. The good I can and want to do eclipses the required screen reader but still it’s nice to know if any State’s allow window-eyes so that if jobs come along I can give those states more serious consideration. I also might in the future be able to assist clients by providing my chosen State with success stories from government employees who work elsewhere. Although I don’t get window-eyesas a choice in the workplace in this scenario some of my future clients might. Mike From: Dave Bahr Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 2:06 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: States that allow window-eyes eh, I still say to hell with the policy just put whatever you're more comfortable using. I mean, that's like going to a barbershop and finding out that the barber only knows how to shave heads, can't do anything else. You wouldn't stand for that if you wanted a different style, would you? Sorry maybe that's a horrible analogue. There is, however, nothing wrong with even elementary training in another product because it is out there and in a small market like the adaptive tech industry, or even the screen reader market, why not learn about a few of them? That's not saying you have to memorize the basic manual to each one, but a consumer/employee should have a choice. So this is, "you can have any color you want as long as it's black," all over again. Dave c. bahr On 7/18/2011 1:45 PM, M and L Dorn wrote: > The VA in the Vegas area and in Tucson only trained in Jaws. I kept > saying that my husband needed to use the same screen reader as me so > I could help him learn when they weren't here. They finally got it > for him, but they said they stuck to Jaws because they had no > trainers who knew Window Eyes. That's probably the reason for their > so-called restriction. They have never bothered to have their > trainers learn WE, so they can't teach it. The Vegas VA, who > contracts computer training through Easter Seals, now has a WE > trainer; and he's sharp and knows his stuff. About time! > > TTFN, Marilyn > > At 07:37 AM 7/18/2011, you wrote: >> I’m also in Illinois. You’re probably right that they only >> train in Jaws, but they did purchase my updated copy of Window Eyes >> since I insisted that that’s the screen reader I desired. Keep in >> mind though that I’ve been using WE for 20 or so years. >> >> >> *From:* Keith [mailto:[email protected]] *Sent:* Sunday, July 17, >> 2011 9:58 AM *To:* gw info *Subject:* Re: States that allow >> window-eyes >> >> Here in Illinois, the Bureau of blind services will train new >> clients, whether they are looking for a job or going back to school >> in Jaws only. >> >> Keith >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Bahr >> mailto:[email protected] To: [email protected] >> mailto:[email protected] Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2011 7:53 AM >> Subject: Re: States that allow window-eyes >> >> Wow, just when you think you've heard it all. I've never heard of >> this before, wouldn't that be monopolizing in some form? If you are >> on a laptop or computer of your own, couldn't you just use WE? Then >> again, is this the civil service's equivelent of dictating what >> sort of computer can be used, pc or mac? I suppose they could argue >> on the grounds industry standard or uniformity, but that still >> seems cagy. I guess my course of action would be twofold. First, if >> you're working at a productive level in the job right along with >> either other blind or sighted colleagues and you feel comfortable >> using WE more than jfw, I would tell them that. If you're trying to >> learn a different screen reader which is really the only way you >> can navigate a computer and your productivity is at a level that is >> satisfactory to the managers, then why choose something that has a >> fairly steep learning curve? In other words, you could tell the >> supervisors that, for all intensive purposes the two prodducts are >> alike and you feel more comfortable with WE because you've been >> using it longer and feel you can give them your best work. They >> don't have to know the specific differences between the two >> products but it might be beneficial to say that you can give them >> much better work with something you don't have to spend hours and >> hours to learn. If they absolutely insist that under no >> circumstances can you use an alternative reader, then tell them >> that you need to go through intensive training to learn jfw and >> they should pay for it if they are so stuck in their ways. Then you >> have the advantage of saying that to get a WE license would cost x >> dollars while training and jfw would cost y dollars. In an economy >> where everything is being cut back, a savings is still a savings. >> of course there is also the tactic which carries probably the most >> weight and that is to emphasize the stability of WE and its >> features for your speicific tasks in the job and jfw's severe lack >> in both of those areas. If it really came down to it you could >> demonstrate such tasks and perhaps play up jfw's massive amount of >> keystrokes required to perform the task; keystrokes which also >> require that the user have 12 fingers to execute. Exaggeration in >> this case would benefit you i think. You could then switch to WE >> and glide through the task with ease thus demonstrating it's >> precision and streamlined approach. That's all hypothetical of >> course. >> >> Ok, i've probably analyzed this beyond the level necessary to make >> a decision, but those are just my thoughts on the matter. >> >> >> Dave c. bahr >> >> >> On 7/17/2011 7:12 AM, tony c wrote: >>> Hi, I never knew that there were >>   any restrictions on what screen >>> reader one could use. Is it because WE >>   will not work with their >>> software? I’ll check here in Saint Louis and >>   let you know. T C >>> >>> *From:* Michael Peterson < mailto:[email protected] >>> mailto:[email protected]> mailto:[email protected] >>   *Sent:* Sunday, >>> July 17, 2011 5:30 AM *To:* [email protected] >>> mailto:[email protected] < mailto:[email protected] >>> mailto:[email protected]> mailto:[email protected] >>   *Subject:* States that allow >>> window-eyes >>> >>> *Hi all. I >>   am looking in to possibley relocating to another state for >>> civil >>   service employment. California restricts screen reader use to >>> Jaws >>   only. Is this true of all or most states?* *The state I am >>> focusing on >>   is PA currently and if I could use window-eyes the >>> learning curve >>   would be easier although I am currently trying to >>> learn all the twists >>   and turns of using jaws in case I work in CA.* >>> *At this point nothing >>   is in stone but I wish someone had a list of >>> states that will allow >>   there workers to use there choice of screen >>> readers or at least >>   window-eyes as an alternative to Jaws if they >>> choose..* *Thanks for >>   any helpful information.* *Mike* ** If you reply to this message it will be delivered to the original sender only. If your reply would benefit others on the list and your message is related to GW Micro, then please consider sending your message to [email protected] so the entire list will receive it. GW-Info messages are archived at http://www.gwmicro.com/gwinfo. You can manage your list subscription at http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv.
