I agree with much that has been written including my personal opinion that the Sense family of products are the best most reliable on the market at this time. However as was said earlier the fact that these products are substantially more costly then a net book or lap top and all these products have limitations which most net books and lap tops do not have is certainly something which needs to be explained especially to those individuals who are newly entering this grade of adaptive technology. I suspect that looking five years in to the future for my personal use I will probably replace the Braille Sense Plus with a net book and a wireless Braille display. Though this is never going to give me the ease of use that a dedicated note taker will the issue of software limitations will be much less of an issue and the price is going to be easier to bare. Again in praise of GW Micro a company I have been happily doing business with since gulp dos and Vocal Eyes thus far we are not being charged an annual upgrade fee. With other companies this is typically an annual payment of ten percent of the cost of the unit in question in my case about $630.00 which I would pay, but certainly am glad not to, and many others out there are financially unable to cost. So, as with many other technology decisions we must make information and what one is trying to accomplish together with the cost of doing ones work are the key issues.
-----Original Message----- From: Edwards, Paul [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 15:31 To: [email protected] Cc: Izquierdo, Jose; 'Judy Jackson' Subject: RE: [GWN] frustrations about the Sense products I think it is important to acquire some perspective on this issue. I do not currently own a gps system and will therefore disqualify myself from that issue as uninformed. I have had and used a gps system with braille note products but that was several years ago also. I think there is room for blind people to be dissatisfied with product updating. However, I think that the dissatisfaction ought to apply across the board. I think it is worth noting that the sense products have yet to charge for upgrades. The Humanware folks certainly do charge for the braille note family. I was disheartened to see that the introduction of the Apex did not seem to include many changes to the programs that were run. Sure, there is more memory and built-in wireless and blue tooth. But I think a lot of us thought that this major upgrade and its attendant price tag would have also included more changes. It is my belief that product developers have an obligation to update frequently if that is necessary to maintain functionality and competitiveness. I think there are some major issues in this area that the sense products have allowed themselves to fall behind the cure on. Shakespeare said that comparisons are odious and I have sympathy with that concept. Those who make and sell the Sense note takers have made a choice as to whether they were going to charge for upgrades. Regardless of the economics of that decision, I think there is no excuse for a failure, by now, to support word 2007 files. I also do believe that the internet has changed enough over the past few years and the Sense products and the humanware note takers and perhaps even the Freedom Scientific not taker have all failed either to come up with solutions that make the web more accessible or to say up front that such access has serious limitations. I absolutely concur with whoever said that mainstream products must be updated to be saleable and so they are changed whenever there is a need. I do not think that blindness products as a group perceive that they have the same level of obligation to those who have chosen their products. I think that it is a generalized disdain for blind owners expressed through a failure to change enough with the times that we need to deplore. I find myself wondering also if we are operating during a time of transition where the relatively inexpensive net book and lap top are making inroads into the viability of note takers. Could we be approaching a threshold below which change will not happen. Some of us lived through the decline and fall of the braille lite millennium and know only too well that, after a very short life, Freedom Scientific stopped upgrading the device. I own a millennium, a braille plus, and a voice sense and have owned braille notes as well. I think what frustrates all of us who use these devices is the fact that, if truth be told, none of these devices is as transparent to the internet or to email as computers are. Perhaps this is the price we have to pay for a braille display or a braille keyboard Perhaps, however, we have reached the point where we need to say that, given the fact that we could buy ten net books for every braille sense we might consider buying, we, or someone, is not getting enough return on the investment. In general, I hold the following truths to be self-evident and relevant. We have a right not to be disadvantaged by products that we have paid a high premium for and such products need to be updated regularly, whether we are charged for those upgrades or not. Blind owners of technology ought to have the same right to expect that their products can be used where they are designed to be used as do people without disabilities who purchase products that do the same tasks. Perhaps most important of all is my belief that vendors have an obligation to discuss the limitations of their products. Given the quantity of flash and java-enabled stuff on the net, for instance, I think that folks ought to know about the limitations of the note takers in terms of accessing sites that make widespread use of either of these technologies. It does not matter to me who paid for the products we own. I paid for all of mine myself with no support from my employer or the vr system. We are the end users of the technology and must be able to rely on it to do what we bought it to do. Somebody paid a lot of money for the access tech products we have. Is it reasonable that we are on a declining spiral of usability as the net changes and our products do not? I understand and, to some degree, accept the argument about a small market. However, we pay a high price for these products which should take care of the disincentive to update. In some cases, we also pay for maintenance agreements for which we sometimes get very little in return. I am not sure we are yet at the stage of "broadcast News" but I think that there is less and less being done for these devices so they are all, to a greater or lesser extent, causing us to be further and further behind our non-disabled peers. I would argue that GW Micro tries hard to apply the principles I am espousing with their screen reader. Are we at the stage where not taker for the blind manufacturers are more concerned about keeping up with the competition than they are in making sure their products do what they are supposed to do? Is that competition asking that each product do a bunch of things because other products do a bunch of things? Are we at the stage where we as consumers and access technology producers must work to develop a new paradigm to measure both the viability of products and what consumers really need and want? Paul -----Original Message----- From: Bryan Duarte [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, May 14, 2010 2:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [GWN] frustrations about the Sense products Raul, I live in Phoenix Arizona. there are several things I have attempted to search for using my sense nav and the results returned to me were either, incorrect, could not be found, or gave directions that were inaccurate. now if we are only talking about streets, cities, and states over all, the Sense Nav is great. the streets in phoenix never change. what changes is the businesses, locations, and information. staying up to date with all this information when it is ever changing would be impossible if maps were updated every year, but to let it go out three plus years would be virtually ridiculous to expect any kind of accurate information. let me explain... I searched for a restaurant that I knew was on a particular corner just did not know the phone number. I searched using the search by name, then category, then by setting my virtual position to that corner and doing a look around. still no results were returned for the restaurant. after I thought about it the POI I was looking for was only there for about two years or so. as I looked for other businesses such as a local gym, gas station, and restaurant about half of the searches were not easily found, were not found, or the information given was not correct. the only reason I do not use the sense nav currently is because at this point the maps on the sense nav are to far behind for Phoenix and its metro areas ever changing and growing communities. I do not expect for a GPS system for sighted or blind to be 100 percent accurate, but what I do expect is for a product such as a GPS system to stay as current as possible. Sendero is a very big name in GPS for the blind, they have a great system, and always have up to date maps for their devices. my only question is what has taken so long for the Sense nav? when the voice sense and the Braille sense came out the talk was that these products were top of the line, were small, powerful, and had lots of promises in store for the future. well three years later, there are little to no major upgrades on OS, the Daisy player still has no support for RFB and D, NLS audio books, and still no updates for programs running on the voice sense. the Braille note is evolving every year and changing with the times while the sense products seem to be three years back. I guess it is just frustrating because I bought a voice sense because the size, power, and possibilities. three years later I am starting to feel let down, and that maybe I made the wrong decision. Raul I know you are very passionate about the products you have and I know you always try to help everyone with them, my only problem is that all of the sense users bought a device that they hoped was going to shine when they bought it and continue to shine through the years to come. we are not so bright these days. please take these things I say as a frustrated customer who would like to voice their opinion somewhere that it might be heard and taken into consideration. this is in no way a direct slander towards GW Micro, Sendero, or Hims. Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions -----Original Message----- From: Raul A. Gallegos [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2010 8:53 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [GWN] frustrations about the Sense products Bryan, I'm curious, where you live, have the maps changed that much from 2007 to 2010 that it makes your current SenseNav unusable like you say? Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing what you say and I'm not trying to come off like what you say isn't important. However in testing the 2010 maps and comparing them to the various cities I've traveled to or checked out in virtual mode, not much has changed other than some updated names for major roads. What has changed a lot is the POI data. Regarding the SyncBraille, if it's out of warranty, with any hardware product, a standard $45 analysis charge is always charged. So we are not singling you out here with it. Regarding the firmware, I have personally been pushing for new updates for a long time. Whether you believe me or not is up to you, but I think that anyone who knows me will believe that I feel strongly that the Sense notetakers are very good and they need to stay up-to-date. If I had the rights and resources, I would have updated them myself. Many thanks. On 5/13/2010 11:05 AM, Bryan Duarte wrote: > I am with you on this issue sir. I bought a voice sense, sync Braille, > and the sense nave right when they were released. now I have had a voice > sense with no promised up grades, a sync Braille that no longer works > and to get it fixed they want to charge me 45 dollars a half hour to > diagnose the problem then parts and labor is separate, and a sense nav > that has maps from who knows how long ago with no information on when > and how much a new upgrade will cost. don't get me wrong I love my voice > sense and the sync Braille when it worked was great. the sense nav was > awesome when the map was accurate but now that times have moved on and > the technology has not things are looking down on the distributors and > manufacturers. to me making new products when the old products you > currently have are not being maintained is a little backwards I think. I > use to use my voice sense a lot more when it was an all in one device > that was up to date on all systems. now that I have a firm ware that > could not even pretend to bat an eye at other note takers and a sense > nav that was awesome three years ago when it was somewhat accurate as to > what was around me, but now I have over 8 thousand dollars invested into > a refreshable Braille display that acts as a Braille paper weight, and a > GPS receiver that takes up space in my travel back pack just waiting to > come out and play some day in the future. > > > > Bryan Duarte Blind Ambitions > > > > *From:* erik burggraaf [mailto:[email protected]] > *Sent:* Thursday, May 13, 2010 6:36 AM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: [GWN] Tip1 for the new Sense notetaker firmware > > > > > > Again, it's the licensing, not the software that is at issue. > > What I'm reading is that braille note and mobile geo can physically > share map data on properly licensed and compatible devices, but > braille sense can't, which is a severe limitation. > > Don't forget that all these devices are built on the same > development kit, no matter what brand name you put on it. That > doesn't make them all equal, but it at least holds out the option to > have them compatible. An option which, based on what people are > saying here, braille note and mobile geo offer, but sensenav does not. > > Then we have the issue of the licensing for current maps. For > example, I've just found out that 2010 maps are only licensed to > mobile geo 2. That of course is so that I and others like me will > have to by msp4 and mgeo2 to get a current map, which we have the > option to do. But if the 2010 map were licensed to sensenav, then > one way or the other sensenav could use it. Taking care of this > licensing shouldn't require a firmware upgrade, but if it did, then > it could be done by a patch without requiring an entire firmware, > since they did that very thing for the braille note. If a fee had > to be charged for upgrading maps, well, so be it. Everyone has a > right to make money at what they do. Users who aren't greatly > effected by using old map data can buy a case of beer on the > weekend, where-as hard core travellers who need consistent accuracy > could go without for a weekend or two and get the upgrade. In fact, > I'm reasonably sure that any one who forked out 6 grand for a bsp, > and $1600 for sensenav are not going to quibble at a $60-$80 upgrade > fee for the map data for their high priced kit. Even sighted gps > users incur that cost, although most commercial gps are farely > disposable and so the cost is usually built into a whole new unit > and they don't realize they're paying for it. > > This doesn't seem like rocket science to me. Old map, increasingly > inaccurate, potential time, money and safety concern. Answer, give > the customer an option to pay for a new map when an update becomes > available. Then if you want to trundle around unfamiliar areas with > a three year old map on your $8000 gps, well you go on and giver, > but the rest of us can be getting on with the best possible > information, especially when you're like me and you need it for work > or school. > > best, > > Erik Burggraaf > Join me Wednesday, May 26th at CNIB Tech Aids fair in Toronto. I'll > be at the assistive computing booth from 2 to 4 in the afternoon and > circulating for the rest of the day. > http://www.erik-burggraaf.com > 888-255-5194 > > On 2010-05-12, at 5:18 AM, Keith Bucher wrote: > > > Erik, > > > > Sense Nav is a HIMS or Gw Micro product not a Sendero product. > > Sendero licenses it to GW Micro and HIMS. If you use Sense Nav, > > as of right now, you are stuck with the 2007 maps. The later maps > > are just for the Braillenote products from Humanware. > > > > > > Keith > > > > > > > > > > > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv > > > If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: > > http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv -- Raul A. Gallegos GW Micro Technical Support And Product Specialist Voice 260-489-3671, Fax 260-489-2608 Web http://www.gwmicro.com If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv If you wish to unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.gwmicro.com/listserv
