You could have clipped out the tiddlers conversation... :P Now we all look
like idiots. Perverted idiots.

On Fri, Feb 20, 2009 at 5:08 PM, Geoffrey Sneddon <[email protected]
> wrote:

>
> On 20 Feb 2009, at 21:42, Owen Winkler wrote:
>
> > I suspect that a fuller log may surface with the noted parts intact
>
> Attached is such a non-edited log (though, admittedly, emoticons are
> lost). I think this covers the entire discussion.
>
>
> --
> Geoffrey Sneddon
> <http://gsnedders.com/>
>
> >
>
> [02:41] • arthus is regretting what he posted on -dev
> [02:41] arthus: ringmaster: none of this is meant as a personal attack, and
> reading it now it seems to come off that way, so I'm sorry
> [02:42] MellerTime (n=ch...@unaffiliated/mellertime) joined the chat room.
> [02:42] ringmaster: arthus, kiss my ass.
> [02:43] arthus: ringmaster: ...
> [02:43] ringmaster: Really, I've been discussing all day how I'm trying not
> to just tell you you suck, but I just don't give a damn any more.
> [02:44] arthus: fuck you, supposedly benevolent dictator
> [02:44] ringmaster: I don't commit your code because I often think it's
> bad, and I can't figure out how to be nice about it, so I say nothing, which
> is why I never personally review your code.  If you think it's some
> conspiracy against you, so be it.  I just don't care what you think.
> [02:44] MellerTime:
> [02:44] arthus: and I don't give a damn what you think any more
> [02:44] MellerTime: i miss all the fun...
> [02:44] MellerTime: you guys couldn't wait TWO MINUTES?!
> [02:45] arthus: since you're a god damn perfectionist who would never have
> a single feature done if he was left to his own devices
> [02:45] MellerTime: see, this is community
> [02:45] • MellerTime drags rick_c and mikelietz into a group hug
> [02:45] ringmaster: arthus, no, I just don't like your code.  Plain and
> simple.
> [02:45] arthus: the rest of you: bye, I'm sorry I won't be able to help
> anymore
> [02:46] arthus: since your dictator doesn't "like my code"
> [02:46] MellerTime: ringmaster: you are a perfectionist
> [02:46] arthus: ringmaster: and yet you can't even think of a good
> objection
> [02:46] miklb: I ain't got no dictator
> [02:46] arthus: beyond not liking it
> [02:46] MellerTime: miklb: i think you're supposed to make some kind of
> crude gesture when you say that
> [02:46] ringmaster: Everyone else in the project (well, except MellerTime)
> is telling you you've got other avenues, why are you persuing me?
> [02:46] arthus: I don't have other avenues
> [02:47] Morydd: arthus: calling ringmaster a dictator is a personal insult
> to me (and the others who take meritocracy seriously)
> [02:47] ringmaster: Ask any of the other committers to review your poor ass
> code.  Maybe they'll commit it.  I won't.  Get over it.
> [02:47] arthus: Morydd: okay, I meant that he thinks of himself as a
> dictator
> [02:47] MellerTime: in all fairness, i did just voice very similar concerns
> earlier this week
> [02:48] arthus: ringmaster: I don't think it's a matter of my code
> [02:48] rick_c: arthus: i'd have to disagree with that
> [02:48] rick_c: re the dictator bit
> [02:48] arthus: otherwise you wouldn't let RandyWalker within a mile of
> commit access
> [02:48] MellerTime: we don't
> [02:48] arthus: I think it's more like you not liking me, for good reasons
> [02:48] arthus: MellerTime: then how is rust habitually committed?
> [02:48] MellerTime: it's not
> [02:48] MellerTime: you guys keep saying it like it's a weekly thing
> [02:49] MellerTime: one time
> [02:49] miklb: well, there was at least one other time, but that's not the
> point
> [02:49] miklb: if it was weekly, something more severe would have already
> taken place
> [02:49] arthus: ringmaster: well, as far as I know you're not supposed to
> have veto power over all contributions
> [02:49] miklb: and he doesn't
> [02:49] ringmaster: arthus, no, it really is the code.  I often don't like
> your code, and I don't like how you present yourself when I say I don't like
> it.  I'm sick of apologizing for your insistence on meeting my standards
> which you have recognized as beyond your reach.
> [02:49] arthus: yet it seems you do, since almost nothing gets into core
> which you don't approve of
> [02:49] Morydd: We keep bringing it up because it's funny and RandyWalker
> takes the joke well (most of the time)
> [02:50] arthus: I don't give a damn about ringmaster's unreachable
> standards
> [02:50] arthus: all I care about is Habar's standards
> [02:50] arthus: unfortunately, the 2 seem to be more and more the same
> [02:51] MellerTime: i would tend to agree
> [02:51] MellerTime: not that having high standards is in itself a bad thing
> by any means
> [02:51] ringmaster: That's great.  Suggest an alternative.  "Let you commit
> whatever crap code you want" is out.
> [02:51] arthus: it is when it means nothing gets committed
> [02:52] arthus: MellerTime: is all my code (or most of it) crap?
> [02:52] scoates: yeesh.
> [02:52] miklb: rick_c: so do you think instead of the introduction being
> the default tiddler, that there be a tiddler that links to skippy's stuff
> that is broken down into multiple tiddlers?
> [02:52] MellerTime: i have honestly never looked at most of your code
> [02:52] rick_c: hey, scoates.
> [02:52] scoates: I read ringmaster's post as "make sure you know what
> you're doing when you accept patches into trunk"
> [02:52] MellerTime: but i will say that i'd have written taxonomy classes
> by now if i thought i could implement them in a way that would be of
> satisfactory quality
> [02:52] arthus: ringmaster: you still can't even identify a reason my code
> is crap
> [02:53] MellerTime: miklb: is tiddler seriously a word they use?
> [02:53] miklb: MellerTime: yes
> [02:53] rick_c: miklb: no, though i think the introduction could be
> rewritten
> [02:53] miklb: tiddler == "post" for the lack of a better word
> [02:53] rick_c: MellerTime: these *are* tiddlers.
> [02:53] MellerTime: the introduction should be basic and contain links to
> the key pages i would thin
> [02:53] MellerTime: k
> [02:54] arthus: MellerTime: agreed
> [02:54] rick_c: as could the FAQ,
> [02:54] miklb: OK, so until someone is motivated to rewrite these things,
> how could we make the manual better with what we have?
> [02:54] MellerTime: add ponies
> [02:55] arthus: ponies makes everything better
> [02:55] arthus: except my code, since then the ponies just get stuck in the
> crap
> [02:55] scoates: I need to do some housekeeping:  sarcasmic:~/svn$ ls -ld
> habari* | wc -l      ->      11
> [02:55] scoates: 11 habari checkouts. I fale.
> [02:56] • miklb did some housekeeping himself today.  But not 11, more like
> 6
> [02:56] arthus: is there any way to mass-remove yourself as the owner of
> tickets?
> [02:56] miklb: on my local machine that is
> [02:57] ringmaster: arthus, just walk away if you're going to walk away.
>  Other people will take ownership of things organizally without causing that
> thrash in the database.
> [02:57] scoates: who last touched the phpunit branch? caius?
> [02:57] arthus: ringmaster: no, that's disorganized
> [02:57] miklb: or michaeltwofish
> [02:57] rick_c: what about a menu on the lines of Introduction | User
> Manual | Developer Introduction | Theming | Plugins .
> [02:58] arthus: if I'm no longer the owner of tickets, I don't want to be
> marked as such
> [02:58] miklb: rick_c: and drop Install and upgrade and make that part of
> User manual?
> [02:58] rick_c: yes.
> [02:59] miklb: as well as FAQ?
> [02:59] arthus: ringmaster: are you planning to purge -extras of what you
> describe as crap too, or is meritocracy still safe there?
> [02:59] rick_c: there could well be two faqs, one aimed at users, one at
> developers
> [02:59] schnoodles: mailing list is going mad today
> [02:59] scoates: so, back to real work: does anyone object to breaking
> autoload out of index.php so that other (non-habari-proper) code can hook
> it?
> [02:59] miklb: something is in the water
> [03:00] scoates: specifically: the test cases
> [03:00] chrisjdavis ([email protected]) joined the chat room.
> [03:00] Morydd: arthus: I don't appreciate the implication that the other
> 20+ members of the PMC are not doing their jobs.
> [03:00] chrisjdavis ([email protected]) left the chat room. (Remote
> closed the connection)
> [03:00] arthus: Morydd: are they?
> [03:01] miklb: no, we are sitting around getting famous off of ringmaster's
> hard work
> [03:01] miklb:
> [03:01] rick_c: arthus: you're harming yourself more than anyone else
> [03:01] rick_c: miklb: can i have some fame, too?
> [03:01] arthus: rick_c: how so? I don't really give a damn, since
> ringmaster is kicking me out anyways
> [03:01] ringmaster: arthus, I'm personally done talking to you right now,
> if only because this conversation isn't productive even in resolving
> whatever it is you perceive as the problem.  I think you've ruined any
> goodwill I had toward you with your email to -dev.  If you want to leave the
> project, you don't need to do anything more, just walk.
> [03:02] rick_c: 1. you appear to be withdrawing yourself. 2. i was
> referring to the effect anger and hurt have on one long term. i'm a social
> worker. what do you expect?
> [03:02] Morydd: arthus: you have constantly accused the PMC of being
> untrustworthy. You've never believed that the meritocracy works. So, as
> we've said before, if you don't trust us you're going to assume anything we
> say can't be trusted either. There is nothing we can do to change that.
> [03:03] arthus: Morydd: I do believe meritocracy works and I do trust most
> of the PMC
> [03:03] arthus: but I do also think that meritocracy can give way to
> dictatorship without sufficient exercise of restraint
>

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