I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have over
ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah genetit,
psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah shimushit
without any visible reason for the difference. Likewise, there is
pesikhopati but ishiyut psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters.
Smadar
On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote:
Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an
authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.
So right now we have:
kriminologyah
statistiskah
but deramah.
psikhologyah
psikhi, etc.
but pesefas.
Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva
under the first letter.
The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as
loan words and not put in the sheva na.
Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How
would a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?
I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or
pesefas.
I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system
we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.
Barry
Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Heb-naco
[heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] on behalf
of Heidi G Lerner [ler...@stanford.edu]
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he
went to a valid reference work.
Bes, Heidi
Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are
quite clear:
/The first shev.a in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal
cluster is generally treated as a shev.a nah.. For correct
romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a
case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel
"heightening"--the shev.a of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a
h.irik.: bi-, ki-, li-./
/ALA-LC Romanization:/
/Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-st?at?ist?ik.ah./
/?????. ???? ??????? ??????????./
/Universit?ah ha-'Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-k.riminologyah./
/?????????? ?????? ????????. ???? ?????????????/
/but:/
/deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]/
/A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules
governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when
preceded by an open syllable./
/be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)/
Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120
e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay
Rovner <jarov...@jtsa.edu>
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages. I have only
Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek
letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition
treats /pesefas/ and /deramah/ as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing
the first consonant with a /sheva, /which it does not do for
/psikholog/. This is not a question of etymology, but of usage. I
think that Israeli speakers pronounce the /sheva/ of /pesafas /if only
because that helps them accent the final syllable (unfortunately they
ignore a lot of other mobile shevas, ones thatwe do -- and do not --
regard in our Romanizing).
JR
Jay Rovner, PhD
Manuscript Bibliographer
The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary
5501 Library
3080 Broadway
New York City, New York 10027
(212) 678-8045
*Please note:*The JTS Library's archives are temporarily to
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The Special Collections are closed for approximately four years.
Reference services for the Special Collections will continue
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For help in finding what you might need, please email
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website <http://www.jtsa.edu/The_Library.xml>.
*From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of
*Jasmin Shinohara
*Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM
*To:* heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a
psi. Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it?
On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:
... which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.
**
*Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337
nf...@umd.edu <mailto:nf...@umd.edu>
*From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf
Of *Yossi Galron
*Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
Heidi,
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
Yossi
On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <ler...@stanford.edu
<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>> wrote:
Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.
Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize
?????
as "psefas"
Best, Heidi
Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953 <tel:650-725-9953>
fax: 650-725-1120 <tel:650-725-1120>
e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu <mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu
<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron
<jgal...@gmail.com <mailto:jgal...@gmail.com>>
*Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
I wouldn't change our practice.
Just lazy.
Yossi
On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu
<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> wrote:
Hi all,
We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of
foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to
Romanize the word ??????
Thanks,
Smadar
--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610 <tel:215-573-9610>
ssht...@upenn.edu <mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>
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--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
ssht...@upenn.edu
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