I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have over ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah genetit, psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah shimushit without any visible reason for the difference. Likewise, there is pesikhopati but ishiyut psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters.
Smadar

On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote:
Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.
So right now we have:
kriminologyah
statistiskah
but deramah.

psikhologyah
psikhi, etc.
but pesefas.

Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva under the first letter.

The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as loan words and not put in the sheva na.

Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How would a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?

I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or pesefas.

I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.

Barry

Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [ler...@stanford.edu]
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went to a valid reference work.


Bes, Heidi


Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite clear:


/The first shev.a in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as a shev.a nah.. For correct romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the shev.a of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a h.irik.: bi-, ki-, li-./
/ALA-LC Romanization:/
/Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-st?at?ist?ik.ah./
/?????. ???? ??????? ??????????./
/Universit?ah ha-'Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-k.riminologyah./
/?????????? ?????? ????????. ???? ?????????????/
/but:/
/deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]/
/A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable./
/be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)/


Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu



------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner <jarov...@jtsa.edu>
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages. I have only Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition treats /pesefas/ and /deramah/ as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first consonant with a /sheva, /which it does not do for /psikholog/. This is not a question of etymology, but of usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce the /sheva/ of /pesafas /if only because that helps them accent the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of other mobile shevas, ones thatwe do -- and do not -- regard in our Romanizing).

JR

Jay Rovner, PhD

Manuscript Bibliographer

The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary

5501 Library

3080 Broadway

New York City, New York  10027

(212) 678-8045

*Please note:*The JTS Library's archives are temporarily to accommodate packing of our Special Collections in advance of our rebuilding project. The archives will reopen on January 4, 2016, in the Temporary Library located on the 7th floor of JTS's Kripke and Schiff buildings.

The Special Collections are closed for approximately four years. Reference services for the Special Collections will continue throughout this period. Please be sure to check for digital copies of manuscripts and rare books.

For help in finding what you might need, please email sadiam...@jtsa.edu <mailto:sadiam...@jtsa.edu> or s...@jtsa.edu <mailto:s...@jtsa.edu> with Special Collections requests, or our reference librarians <mailto:libr...@jtsa.edu> or visit the Library's website <http://www.jtsa.edu/The_Library.xml>.

*From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Jasmin Shinohara
*Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM
*To:* heb-naco@lists.osu.edu
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a psi. Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it?

On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:

    ... which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.

    **

    *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*

    Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger

    McKeldin Library

    University of Maryland
    College Park, MD 20742
    Phone (301) 405-9337

    nf...@umd.edu <mailto:nf...@umd.edu>

    *From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf
    Of *Yossi Galron
    *Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
    *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
    *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

    Heidi,
    I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
    Yossi

    On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <ler...@stanford.edu
    <mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>> wrote:

    Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.

    Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize

    ?????

    as "psefas"

    Best, Heidi

    Heidi G. Lerner

    Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

    Metadata Dept.

    Stanford University Libraries

    Stanford, CA 94305-6004

    ph: 650-725-9953 <tel:650-725-9953>

    fax: 650-725-1120 <tel:650-725-1120>

    e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu <mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    *From:*Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu
    <mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron
    <jgal...@gmail.com <mailto:jgal...@gmail.com>>
    *Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
    *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
    *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

    I wouldn't change our practice.
    Just lazy.
    Yossi

    On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu
    <mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> wrote:

    Hi all,
    We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of
    foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to
    Romanize the word ??????
    Thanks,
    Smadar

-- Smadar Shtuhl
    Hebraica Library Specialist
    University of Pennsylvania
    Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
    3420 Walnut Street
    Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
    F. 215-573-9610 <tel:215-573-9610>
    ssht...@upenn.edu <mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>

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Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
ssht...@upenn.edu

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