Semadar (or do you prefer Smadar :-) The examples you brought are not according to the practice we were using and are not "correct", but in general I support the discussion and we need to reconsider the matter. Kol tuv Yossi [also not according to the rules] On Nov 11, 2015 11:10 AM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote:
> I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have over > ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah genetit, > psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah shimushit > without any visible reason for the difference. Likewise, there is > pesikhopati but ishiyut psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters. > Smadar > > On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote: > > Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an > authority. Maybe those two cases are typos. > So right now we have: > kriminologyah > statistiskah > but deramah. > > psikhologyah > psikhi, etc. > but pesefas. > > Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva under > the first letter. > > The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as loan > words and not put in the sheva na. > > Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How would > a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule? > > I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or pesefas. > > I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system we're > using is. Hurray for the vernacular. > > Barry > > Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D. > Judaica Specialist > University of Toronto Libraries > Toronto, ON M5S 1A5 > Canada > ------------------------------ > *From:* Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu] > on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [ler...@stanford.edu] > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question > > I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went to > a valid reference work. > > > Bes, Heidi > > > Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite > clear: > > > *The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal > cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is > necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. > These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa > of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.* > *ALA-LC Romanization:* > *Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.* > *ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.* > *Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.* > *אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה* > *but:* > *deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]* > *A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules > governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when > preceded by an open syllable.* > *be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)* > > > Heidi G. Lerner > > Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica > > Metadata Dept. > > Stanford University Libraries > > Stanford, CA 94305-6004 > > ph: 650-725-9953 > > fax: 650-725-1120 > > e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> > <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner > <jarov...@jtsa.edu> <jarov...@jtsa.edu> > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question > > > I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages. I have only > Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek > letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition treats > *pesefas* and *deramah* as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first > consonant with a *sheva, *which it does not do for *psikholog*. This is > not a question of etymology, but of usage. I think that Israeli speakers > pronounce the *sheva* of *pesafas *if only because that helps them accent > the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of other mobile shevas, > ones thatwe do -- and do not -- regard in our Romanizing). > > > > JR > > > > Jay Rovner, PhD > > Manuscript Bibliographer > > The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary > > 5501 Library > > 3080 Broadway > > New York City, New York 10027 > > (212) 678-8045 > > > > *Please note:* The JTS Library’s archives are temporarily to accommodate > packing of our Special Collections in advance of our rebuilding project. > The archives will reopen on January 4, 2016, in the Temporary Library > located on the 7th floor of JTS’s Kripke and Schiff buildings. > > > > The Special Collections are closed for approximately four years. Reference > services for the Special Collections will continue throughout this period. > Please be sure to check for digital copies of manuscripts and rare books. > > > > For help in finding what you might need, please email sadiam...@jtsa.edu > or s...@jtsa.edu with Special Collections requests, or our reference > librarians <libr...@jtsa.edu> or visit the Library’s website > <http://www.jtsa.edu/The_Library.xml>. > > > > *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu > <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Jasmin Shinohara > *Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM > *To:* heb-naco@lists.osu.edu > *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question > > > > Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a > psi. Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it? > > On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote: > > … which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO. > > > > > > *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.* > > Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger > > McKeldin Library > > University of Maryland > College Park, MD 20742 > Phone (301) 405-9337 > > nf...@umd.edu > > > > *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu > <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Yossi Galron > *Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question > > > > Heidi, > I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas. > Yossi > > On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <ler...@stanford.edu> wrote: > > Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi. > > > > Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize > > פסיפס > > as "psefas" > > > > Best, Heidi > > > > Heidi G. Lerner > > Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica > > Metadata Dept. > > Stanford University Libraries > > Stanford, CA 94305-6004 > > ph: 650-725-9953 > > fax: 650-725-1120 > > e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Yossi > Galron <jgal...@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM > *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel > *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question > > > > I wouldn't change our practice. > Just lazy. > Yossi > > On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu> wrote: > > Hi all, > We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of foreign-loan > words. Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize the word פסיפס? > Thanks, > Smadar > > -- > Smadar Shtuhl > Hebraica Library Specialist > University of Pennsylvania > Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center > 3420 Walnut Street > Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206 > F. 215-573-9610 > ssht...@upenn.edu > > _______________________________________________ > Heb-naco mailing list > Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu > https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco > > > _______________________________________________ > Heb-naco mailing list > Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu > https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Heb-naco mailing list > > Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu > > https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Heb-naco mailing > listheb-n...@lists.osu.eduhttps://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco > > > -- > Smadar Shtuhl > Hebraica Library Specialist > University of Pennsylvania > Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center > 3420 Walnut Street > Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206 > F. 215-573-9610ssht...@upenn.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Heb-naco mailing list > Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu > https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco > >
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