Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an
authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.
So right now we have:
kriminologyah
statistiskah
but deramah.
psikhologyah
psikhi, etc.
but pesefas.
Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a
sheva under the first letter.
The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words
as loan words and not put in the sheva na.
Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage?
How would a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?
I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or
pesefas.
I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the
system we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.
Barry
Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Heb-naco
[heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu
<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto...@lists.osu.edu>] on
behalf of Heidi G Lerner [ler...@stanford.edu
<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>]
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and
he went to a valid reference work.
Bes, Heidi
Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging
are quite clear:
/The first shev.a in a foreign loan word with an initial
consonantal cluster is generally treated as a shev.a nah.. For
correct romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and
Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain
the effect of vowel "heightening"--the shev.a of the prefixes
be-, ke-, and le- becomes a h.irik.: bi-, ki-, li-./
/ALA-LC Romanization:/
/Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-st?at?ist?ik.ah./
/?????. ???? ??????? ??????????./
/Universit?ah ha-'Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-k.riminologyah./
/?????????? ?????? ????????. ???? ?????????????/
/but:/
/deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]/
/A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the
rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and
p/f when preceded by an open syllable./
/be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)/
Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953 <tel:650-725-9953>
fax: 650-725-1120 <tel:650-725-1120>
e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu <mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>
<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner
<jarov...@jtsa.edu> <mailto:jarov...@jtsa.edu>
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages. I have
only Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here
Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew
word. My Alcalay edition treats /pesefas/ and /deramah/ as Hebrew
vocabulary words, vocalizing the first consonant with a /sheva,
/which it does not do for /psikholog/. This is not a question of
etymology, but of usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce
the /sheva/ of /pesafas /if only because that helps them accent
the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of other
mobile shevas, ones thatwe do -- and do not -- regard in our
Romanizing).
JR
Jay Rovner, PhD
Manuscript Bibliographer
The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary
5501 Library
3080 Broadway
New York City, New York 10027
(212) 678-8045
*Please note:*The JTS Library's archives are temporarily to
accommodate packing of our Special Collections in advance of our
rebuilding project. The archives will reopen on January 4, 2016,
in the Temporary Library located on the 7th floor of JTS's Kripke
and Schiff buildings.
The Special Collections are closed for approximately four years.
Reference services for the Special Collections will continue
throughout this period. Please be sure to check for digital
copies of manuscripts and rare books.
For help in finding what you might need, please email
sadiam...@jtsa.edu <mailto:sadiam...@jtsa.edu> or s...@jtsa.edu
<mailto:s...@jtsa.edu> with Special Collections requests, or our
reference librarians <mailto:libr...@jtsa.edu> or visit the
Library's website <http://www.jtsa.edu/The_Library.xml>.
*From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] *On
Behalf Of *Jasmin Shinohara
*Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM
*To:* heb-naco@lists.osu.edu <mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu>
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts
with a psi. Does that make any difference to how we want to
treat it?
On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:
... which kind of shows that the issue is not very well
solved, IMHO.
**
*Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337 <tel:%28301%29%20405-9337>
nf...@umd.edu <mailto:nf...@umd.edu>
*From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu] *On
Behalf Of *Yossi Galron
*Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
Heidi,
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
Yossi
On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <ler...@stanford.edu
<mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>> wrote:
Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.
Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize
?????
as "psefas"
Best, Heidi
Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953 <tel:650-725-9953>
fax: 650-725-1120 <tel:650-725-1120>
e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu <mailto:ler...@stanford.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:*Heb-naco <heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu
<mailto:heb-naco-boun...@lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi
Galron <jgal...@gmail.com <mailto:jgal...@gmail.com>>
*Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
*To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
*Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
I wouldn't change our practice.
Just lazy.
Yossi
On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <ssht...@upenn.edu
<mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>> wrote:
Hi all,
We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of
foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to
Romanize the word ??????
Thanks,
Smadar
--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610 <tel:215-573-9610>
ssht...@upenn.edu <mailto:ssht...@upenn.edu>
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