For what it's worth, this former cataloger agrees with Yossi. Excelsior!
Joan On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Yossi Galron <jgal...@gmail.com> wrote: > Although I supported keeping the status quo on Pesefas/Psefas - I agree > now that we need to change our policy and remove the Alcalay rule for those > words that are Greek/Latin in origin. > The reason I voted to keep the status quo for Pesefas/Psefas was the much > work it would bring on us in cleaning up the database. But it looks that we > are coming back to the same question again and again and it's time to solve > it. > Let's change all Dermah to Dramah and Pesikhologyah to Psikhologyah - > ve-yavo al Tsiyon go'el. > > Yossi > > > > Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger > E-Mail: galro...@osu.edu or jgal...@gmail.com > Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918 > Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit > > On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu > > wrote: > >> Yes, the Cataloging Committee did recently review psefas/pesefas, but >> IIRC the decision was to maintain the status quo. I don’t recall what >> factors went into making that decision. >> >> >> >> As for following Alcalay’s vocalization, I’m not sure how that’s helpful >> since he can be so inconsistent. Take the example of [psych], for which he >> has the following entries: >> >> >> >> Psikhah (for Psyche, myth.) >> >> Psikhoanaliṭi >> >> Psikhoanaliṭiḳai >> >> Psikho’analisah (-zah) >> >> Psikhogeni >> >> Psikhozah >> >> Psikhografah >> >> Psikhografyah >> >> Psikhoṭekhni >> >> Psikhonṭekhniḳah >> >> Psikholog >> >> Psikhologi >> >> >> >> BUT, the first exception with a sheva >> >> >> >> Pesikhologyah, followed by a bunch of different types of psychology, NONE >> of one which have a sheva under the peh: >> >> Psikhologyah geneṭit/hevdelit/ḥinukhit/le-ta’aśiyah/mashṿah/ and on, >> and on. >> >> >> >> THEN, another exception with a sheva >> >> >> >> Pesikhologizatsyah, followed by more entries with NO sheva: >> >> Psikhologism >> >> Psikhosomaṭi >> >> Psikhofisi >> >> Psikhofisikah >> >> Psikhopat >> >> Psikhopatologi >> >> Psikhopatologyah >> >> >> >> THEN, a final exception with a sheva >> >> >> >> Pesikhopati, followed by more entries with NO sheva: >> >> Psikhopatyah >> >> Psikhi >> >> Psikhi’aṭor >> >> Psikhi’aṭri, and the last, >> >> Psikhi’aṭriyah >> >> >> >> I cannot find any logic behind which words are vocalized and which are >> not, but it contradicts Heidi’s principle below that words based on a word >> with a sheva would also have a sheva. >> >> >> >> Nevertheless, Alcalay is consistent with his entries for [dram], which >> makes my question moot, if not food for thought… >> >> Deramah >> >> Deramaṭurg >> >> Dermaṭurgiyah >> >> Deramaṭizatsyah >> >> Deramati >> >> Deramatiyut >> >> >> >> (I didn’t see them till now, which is what prompted the original email. >> Apologies, Jasmin) >> >> >> >> >> >> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino= >> pobox.upenn....@lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Joan Biella >> *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 7:11 PM >> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel >> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ- >> >> >> >> The rule being followed here is the one that says Alcalay's vocalization >> determines the romanization of words with ambiguous initial shevas. If his >> dictionary prints the sheva, we romanize it as "e." This rule was laid >> down for the benefit of catalogers who don't have access to spoken Hebrew >> sources, and ensures a standard romanization for everyone. >> >> Perhaps it is time to reconsider this rule, as some catalogers in some >> circumstances certainly find it annoying. The recent exchange about >> psefas/pesefas dealt with the same issue. Should this be discussed >> seriously by the cataloging committee? >> >> Joan >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes <nf...@umd.edu> >> wrote: >> >> No offense, but have you ever tried to explain the crazy "deramah" >> exception to somebody who is not a Hebrew cataloger? >> >> >> >> Whoever has the power could just have eliminated the exception instead of >> adding to it. >> >> >> >> All linguistic systems tend to regularization >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regularization_(linguistics)>. In any >> codification system, the more exceptions you add to rules, the less >> effective the code is. >> >> >> >> שבת שלום ומעדים לשמחה >> >> >> >> Neil >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Heidi G Lerner <ler...@stanford.edu> >> wrote: >> >> I would certainly think so. I can't think why not. >> >> >> >> The wod, while not of themselves completely foreign words: they are based >> on one. >> >> >> >> Just my thoughts. >> >> >> >> Best, Heidi >> >> >> >> Heidi G. Lerner >> >> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica >> >> Metadata Dept. >> >> Stanford University Libraries >> >> Stanford, CA 94305-6004 >> >> ph: 650-725-9953 >> >> fax: 650-725-1120 >> >> e-mail: ler...@stanford.edu >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* Shinohara, Jasmin <jsh...@pobox.upenn.edu> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2016 2:13 PM >> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel >> *Cc:* Heidi G Lerner >> *Subject:* words starting with דרמ- >> >> >> >> HCM2 clearly states דרמה as exception to vocalization of foreign loan >> words (“first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal >> cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ…” cf. p. 19). Do other >> words starting with that “root” follow that same exception, e.g. דרמטורגיה, >> דרמטי, דרמטיזציה, etc.? >> >> Thank, Jasmin >> >> >> >> --- >> >> Jasmin Shinohara >> >> Hebraica Cataloging Librarian >> >> University of Pennsylvania >> >> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center >> >> 3420 Walnut Street >> >> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206 >> >> T. 215-746-6397 >> >> F. 215-573-9610 >> >> jsh...@upenn.edu >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Heb-naco mailing list >> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu >> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.* >> >> Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger >> >> McKeldin Library >> >> University of Maryland >> College Park, MD 20742 >> Phone (301) 405-9337 >> >> nf...@umd.edu >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Heb-naco mailing list >> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu >> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Heb-naco mailing list >> Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu >> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Heb-naco mailing list > Heb-naco@lists.osu.edu > https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco > >
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