Lisa’s suggested Romanization is below. (I decided to respond to my own email so as to keep the conversation in one thread.)
Lisa, you are right that the title page lacks diacritical marks with the exceptions of the apostrophes after the ש of קיש'וטי and ג of מאנג'ה and ג'ואן. Do we assume that the former should be interpreted as a ̇ג (superior dot) and not a ג' in order to Romanize based on the parallel Mancha? Also, I now see in the chart<https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/ladino.pdf> that ואי* is romanized as a ‘we’; hence, “ḳompweśṭo” and “Ḳweśṭah”; but the example of אגואה in the chart is also romanized with a ‘w’ (“agwah”); shouldג'ואן then be “Jwan”? Other than Heidi’s use of ‘yo’ for יאו, and your use of ‘we’ for ואי and non-use of the aleph diacritic, both of you agree on the Romanization based on the Spanish. In other words, there is NO consistency for vav’s and yod’s (this is plain from the Romanization chart, too). Once that’s established, then, one can deduce from the English “Injeniozo”,“ prImerah”, and “Edision”; but for non-Spanish speakers (when there is no parallel Spanish provided), is there a way to know when a single vav is a ‘u’ or an ‘o’ (“ḳapitUloś” and not “ḳapitOloś”; “segUn” and not “segOn”)? When אי is an ‘i’ or an ‘e’ (“aljamIadah” and not “aljamEadah”)? And when a single yod is an ‘e’ not an ‘i’ (“sEgun” and not “sIgun”)? Or is my only option to consult with a Spanish speaker? Joan (I know you’re lurking ☺), other Ladino mavens, what are your respective takes? Is the aleph diacritic only for use in Hebrew-origin words (per the one example in the Romanization chart)? Lisa, do you agree that יאו is ‘yo’? Heidi, to you agree with “ḳompweśṭo” and “Ḳweśṭah”? (And is hidalgo a proper noun to be capitalized, as in your suggested romanization, or was that a typo?) Thank you all for bearing with me. Best wishes for a שבת שלום and safe and happy 4th of July, Jasmin *Joan, Heidi: Note 2, directed from ואי in the chart, directly contradicts the example given: the note says that at the beginning of a word ואי is always preceded by a ג, e.g. גואירטה, whereas the example given shows the ואי preceded by a מ, e.g. מואיס. Am I missing something, or does the note need to be edited? From: Lisa Rohde [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 12:25 PM To: Shinohara, Jasmin Cc: Cliff Miller Subject: FW: Ladino romanization help Dear Jasmin, Cliff Miller forwarded your Ladino help request to me, since I’ve been working on Ladino cataloguing lately. I’ve been working with a table of ALA/LC Ladino romanizations (see http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/ladino.pdf). I would treat the vowels as being the same as the Spanish ones with א transliterated as a diacritic only in Hebrew-origin words. The notes I see suggest that the answer to your question #4 (ḳompo’eśṭo or ḳompueśṭo? Or ḳompu’eśṭo?) should be ḳompweśṭo Gimel has several transliterations, depending on context (and the orthography in the source may or may not have the diacritics indicated – per my husband, Rabbi Ira Rohde who has studied Ladino). Where you clearly have the parallel of Mancha, I’d go with that rather than Manjah as you had. So my version would be El injeniozo hidalgo Don Ḳishoṭe de lah Manchah : ǂb (ḳapituloś. 1-8) / ǂc ḳompweśṭo por Migel de Servanṭeś Śaaṿedrah ; ṿerśion aljamiadah por Pilar Romeu-Fere, śegun lah primerah edision de Madrid de Juan de lah Ḳweśṭah (1605). Good luck, Lisa Rohde Library, Processing Unit K701 Jewish Theological Seminary of America 3080 Broadway New York, NY 10027 (212) 678-8044 (M-Th 9:30-4) From: Cliff Miller Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 10:44 AM To: Lisa Rohde Subject: FW: Ladino romanization help Thought you would especially enjoy her dilemmas this week. Best wishes, Cliffmiller From: Heb-naco [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 7:16 PM To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel; [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Ladino romanization help Sorry, our email has been down at work and I’m just catching up with emails now. So יאו is ‘yo’ (“injenYOzo”, “RomeYO”, “edisYOn”)? Should it not then be “ṿerśYon”? (and should this kelal be added to the chart?) For other letters, though, how can I know just based on the Romanization table, when אי is ‘i’ (as in “Injenyozo”) and when it’s ‘e’ (as in “ḳompuʾEśṭo”)? In the case of names, I can determine a י (yod) based on found Romanization (e.g. “ḲIshoṭe” and not “ḲEshoṭe”, “PIlar” and not “PElar”, etc.), but what about other words (e.g., “aljamIadah” and not (“aljamEadah”)? Also, when do I add the aleph diacritic (“ḳompuʾeśṭo”, “Śaʾaṿedrah”), and when not (“aljamiadah”)? And when is a ו (vav) a ‘u’ and when an ‘o’ (“ḳOmpUʾeśṭO”, “ḳapiṭUlOs”)? Or is my only hope to consult a Spanish speaker for the vowels? (They couldn’t advise on the diactric, though.) Lisa Rohde (at JTS) emailed me directly; I will forward her response and my follow-up questions separately so as to avoid an overly lengthy email… From: Heb-naco [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 11:58 AM To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Ladino romanization help Dear Jasmin, Here is the romanization that I come up with based on the ALA/LC Romanization table: El injenyozo Hidalgo Don Ḳishoṭe de lah Manjah :ǂbḳapiṭulos 1-8 /ǂcḳompuʾeśṭo por Migel de Servanṭes Śaʾaṿedrah : ṿerśion aljamiadah por Pilar Romeyo-Fero śegun lah primerah edisyon de Madrid de Juan deh lah Ḳuesṭah (1605). .Best, Heidi Heidi G. Lerner Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica Metadata Dept. Stanford University Libraries Stanford, CA 94305-6004 ph: 650-725-9953 fax: 650-725-1120 e-mail: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> ________________________________ From: Heb-naco <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> on behalf of Shinohara, Jasmin <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 8:26 AM To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel Cc: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [Heb-NACO] Ladino romanization help Hi, I’m struggling to understand the vowel Romanization for Ladino: when does an א simply get transcribed as an ‘a’ and when with a diacritical aleph; when there’s no vocalization, how does one know when the ו (vav) is an ‘o’ or a ‘u’? Is an אי always ‘e’, or sometimes ‘i’, depending on the context? The same for a י (yod) -- when there’s no vocalization, how does one know when it’s an ‘e’ and when it’s an ‘i’? For those of us who don’t know Spanish, it’s rather a toss-up. The case I have in hand is איל אינג'יניאוזו הידלגו דון קיש'וטי די לה מאנג'ה : ǂb (קאפיטולוש. 1-8) / ǂc קומפואישטו פור מיגיל די סירב'אנטיש שאאוידרה ; וירשיאון אלג'אמיאדה פור פילאר רומיאו-פ'ירי, שיגון לה פרימירה אידיסיאון די מאדריד די ג'ואן די לה קואישטה (1605) Though there’s no vocalization on the ש’s, given the context I know they’re meant to be ‘sin’ (other than in קיש'וטי) ; but otherwise, do I go for consistency when Romanizing the vavs and yods, or, especially in the case of names, transcribe what makes sense? This is my current stab at it: El enjene’ozo hidalgo Don Ḳeshoṭe de lah Manjah : ǂb (ḳapitoloś. 1-8) / ǂc ḳompo’eśṭo por Megel de Servanṭeś Śa’aṿedrah ; ṿerśe’on aljameadah por Pelar Romeo-Fere, śegon lah premerah edeseon de Madrid de Joan de lah Ḳoeśṭah (1605). But in this case I’ve got an added t.p. in Spanish: El ingenioso hidalgo Don Quijote de la Mancha : ǂb (capítulos 1-8) / ǂc compuesto por Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra ; versión aljamiada por Pilar Romeu Ferré según la primera edición de Madrid de Juan de la Cuesta (1605). Based on the Spanish I’m second-guessing some the romanized words: 1. Should it be enjene’ozo or injeneozo? Or injene’ozo? Or injeni’ozo? 2. Is it Ḳeshoṭe or Ḳishoṭe? 3. ḳapitoloś. or ḳapituloś. (the full stop appears on the source) 4. ḳompo’eśṭo or ḳompueśṭo? Or ḳompu’eśṭo? 5. Megel or Migel? 6. Śa’aṿedrah or Śaaṿedrah? 7. ṿerśe'on or ṿerśion? Or ṿerśi’on? 8. aljameadah or aljamiadah? Or aljami’adah? 9. Pelar or Pilar? 10. Romeo or Romeu? Or Rome’u? 11. śegon or śegun? 12. premerah or primerah? 13. edeseon or edision? Or edisi’on? 14. Jo’an or Juan? Or Ju’an? 15. Ḳo’eśṭah or Ḳueśṭah? Or Ḳu’eśṭah? Please advise. Thanks!! Jasmin --- Jasmin Shinohara Hebraica Cataloging Librarian University of Pennsylvania Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center 3420 Walnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206 T. 215-746-6397 F. 215-573-9610 [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
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