That doesn't really work. I don't want to get into the details on this public forum, but I can guarantee that the result of what you describe is that the problem would just be escalated higher, meaning more convincing bots with avatars, with valid steam accounts that are logged into steam, etc. A few weeks (or maybe even a few days) later, we'd have the same problem, only the avatars would be fixed and it would be even harder for a human to recognize them. This is exactly what I meant by an arms race. We would spend all that time, and maybe some people decided it was too much effort for them, but likely many would still continue to do it.
The delusion that the problem is trivial or that there is magic bullet is only enabled by ignorance of what people are able to and the lengths they go to do this sort of thing. - Fletch From: John Schoenick [mailto:j...@pointysoftware.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 1:48 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Cc: Rob Liu; Fletcher Dunn Subject: Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing usage of player names/images Missing avatars is a big clue. Hit steam overlay -> recent players or whatever, if they don't show up there, they're not actually in the server. All steam needs to do is keep clients updated on steamIDs auth'd with a server. TF2 could then just label steamIDs that are being shown on the scoreboard but not present according to steam as bots. It could evenly passively report this discrepancy via the abuse system. It's hardly unwinnable, it just requires adding some more capabilities to steam. Ideally, we'd just get our server lists from there and not trust servers to be honest. - Neph On 11/02/2011 01:42 PM, Rob Liu wrote: Can anyone share some tips on identify those "spoof" server? There are a few servers I know that's doing it, but they're hiding it so well. it's really hard to tell they're using bots. On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Fletcher Dunn <fletch...@valvesoftware.com<mailto:fletch...@valvesoftware.com>> wrote: The abuse reporting system has only been live a total of 4 days. Give it some time. There are no plans to give any (non-Valve) entity any special route to get their claims of abuse escalated more quickly. There are still simple things we can do to increase player awareness of this functionality, and we are working on them. Give it a couple of weeks or so. We'll see how much data we get back from players, and how effective the system is at curbing these sorts of problems. Your humble servant, Fletch -----Original Message----- From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com> [mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>] On Behalf Of msleeper Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:45 PM To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list Subject: Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing usage of player names/images Fletcher - Is there someone we can report blatantly, aggressively abusive servers to in an attempt to escalate the worst offenders to human intervention? I don't think any of us here are expecting a flawless programmatic solution to the issue of Bad Servers, nor would we expect Valve staff to spend paid manhours joining and checking servers instead of working on much more important tasks, but as someone else said, the 1% worst offenders are "too big to fail" and seem to be falling through the cracks in your automated systems. The reporting tool sounds like a great solution, but my immediate concern is that it might not pan out like you (and us server ops) are hoping since the vast majority of players probably aren't even aware of such problems. On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Fletcher Dunn <fletch...@valvesoftware.com<mailto:fletch...@valvesoftware.com>> wrote: > This is a problem we're obviously aware of. It's definitely not that we > don't care. However, it is essentially an arms race that is provably > unwinnable by Valve. Furthermore, any change we make in the name of security > will almost certainly cause a disruption of legitimate service, due to bugs > on our part, or usage cases we're just not aware of. It is a classic > conflict between security and accessibility. > > Hopefully those two reasons help explain our reluctance to address these > sorts of problems through technology. They will create an ongoing arms race, > in which we can possibly limit this activity and make it harder, but probably > never eliminate it completely. Furthermore, this benefit comes at a cost of > taking resources away from adding features and fixing bugs, and also > disrupting legitimate users. > > When we can do simple and safe things to make it harder to do these sorts of > things, we will. We have some protocol changes that will make it harder to > do this sort of spoofing, which have been beta tested for some time now. > We'll be rolling those out in the next couple of months. > > Crowdsourcing using the abuse reports helps us stay out of the arms race, and > it's the safest and simplest way to deal with this problem and many others > like it. > > Your humble servant, > Fletch > > > -----Original Message----- > From: > hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com> > > [mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>] > On Behalf Of Mart-Jan Reeuwijk > Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 5:39 AM > To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list > Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing usage of > player names/images > > there is some italian group that does that. > > they have dozens maybe even in the hundred of servers in server list, but all > get redirected to 1 server. and those server report a variety of maps played, > names in server lists etc. you click info, refresh, says for example > dustbowl, and then join, get redirected to their server, with bots, and > another map then advertized in the server info. Its damn annoying. And > indeed, they change IP's a lot, to evade blacklisting. > > >>________________________________ >>From: daniel jokiaho >><daniel.joki...@gmail.com<mailto:daniel.joki...@gmail.com>> >>To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list >><hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com>> >>Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011, 7:27 >>Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing usage of >>player names/images >> >>what about servers on different ips and port that have exactly the same >>players. >> >>I join server x. U join server y. And still we play against or with each >>other :-( >>On 2 Nov 2011 06:53, "msleeper" >><mslee...@ismsleeperwrong.com<mailto:mslee...@ismsleeperwrong.com>> wrote: >> >>> Are you sure they're not just adding more servers? Changing IPs is a >>> server playerbase suicide as anyone who had it bookmarked won't be >>> able to find it again. I suppose they could use those servers for >>> redirects, but in theory that would get those IPs blacklisted pretty >>> fast if Valve's scoring/reputation system is still in effect. >>> >>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:42 AM, Jesse Porter >>> <reacherg...@gmail.com<mailto:reacherg...@gmail.com>> >>> wrote: >>> > The problem with blacklisting these servers is that they seem to show up >>> a >>> > few weeks later with a new batch of ip addresses. Can't blacklist them >>> > effectively when they do that. >>> > On Nov 1, 2011 7:40 PM, "Robert Paulson" >>> > <thepauls...@gmail.com<mailto:thepauls...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> > >>> >> It is very rude of you to repeatedly spam the mailing list to pressure >>> >> Valve into doing whatever you want instead of working on crashes and >>> >> content. >>> >> >>> >> Valve has already put in a huge effort making these servers less >>> prominent. >>> >> >>> >> - Blacklist >>> >> - Quickplay >>> >> - Reputation >>> >> >>> >> It isn't perfect but blacklisting takes care of the servers you don't >>> like >>> >> once you've spotted them. Quickplay and reputation filter most of the >>> ones >>> >> you haven't spotted yet. No one I know has any problems finding a server >>> >> full of real players. Everyone I know just blacklists and move on. >>> >> >>> >> Server IPs do not change often since it costs money to buy new ones and >>> you >>> >> need proper ARIN justification to get more due to the IPV4 shortage. The >>> >> fact that you are on here spamming about it as though TF2 is going to >>> die >>> >> out next week makes me think that you are struggling with your own >>> server >>> >> rather than being a concerned player. >>> >> >>> >> I also hate the big pay-to-win servers with fake clients, but it would >>> be a >>> >> mistake for Valve to just de-list them, wrongly assuming no one really >>> >> wants to play there. I have a friend who wouldn't be playing TF2 if they >>> >> didn't exist and has bought hundreds of dollars worth of Mann Co keys. >>> And >>> >> from what he tells me he isn't the only one. Yes he knows there are >>> bots. >>> >> The "cloaked" bots appeal to him for the same reason Valve decided not >>> to >>> >> name bots bot1, bot2, bot3 and to have them taunt randomly. >>> >> >>> >> These servers still exist not because of a fake player plugin but >>> because, >>> >> as much as it pains us to believe, some players actually prefer them. >>> >> >>> >> No one here is enthusiastic about having Valve delist servers based on >>> >> anonymous reports because we all know that the system will be abused >>> even >>> >> though they have "taken basic measures to prevent" it. We know this >>> because >>> >> they also took "measures" to prevent F2P players from avoiding VAC bans >>> by >>> >> making throw-away accounts, yet I still see hackers that have made at >>> least >>> >> 5 of them in a row and even adding their old VAC banned account on their >>> >> friends list. >>> >> >>> >> To save Valve the administration overhead and abuse, and to satisfy both >>> >> server administrators and players, I suggest dropping the server report >>> >> function and adding either of these 2 features. >>> >> >>> >> 1. Add a check-box for Valve-only/Favorites-only Quickplay servers. >>> >> >>> >> 2. Let premium players rate servers from 1 to 5 upon disconnection. Each >>> >> player may only vote once. To prevent voter apathy, servers are >>> >> automatically rated a 5 if the player does not vote. Then the user can >>> >> decide for him/herself to connect to the server based on the rating >>> rather >>> >> than a few opinionated complainers. >>> >> >>> >> These two solutions address the root of the problem and lets the player >>> >> decide while freeing Valve to work on more content. >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> >> please visit: >>> >> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux >>> >> >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux >>> > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, >>> please visit: >>> http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please >>visit: >>http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds_linux > > _______________________________________________ > To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please > visit: > http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds > _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds _______________________________________________ To unsubscribe, edit your list preferences, or view the list archives, please visit: http://list.valvesoftware.com/mailman/listinfo/hlds
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