That doesn't really work. I don't want to get into the details on this public
forum, but I can guarantee that the result of what you describe is that the
problem would just be escalated higher, meaning more convincing bots with
avatars, with valid steam accounts that are logged into steam, etc. A few
weeks (or maybe even a few days) later, we'd have the same problem, only the
avatars would be fixed and it would be even harder for a human to recognize
them. This is exactly what I meant by an arms race. We would spend all that
time, and maybe some people decided it was too much effort for them, but likely
many would still continue to do it.
The delusion that the problem is trivial or that there is magic bullet is only
enabled by ignorance of what people are able to and the lengths they go to do
this sort of thing.
- Fletch
From: John Schoenick [mailto:j...@pointysoftware.net]
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 1:48 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Cc: Rob Liu; Fletcher Dunn
Subject: Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing
usage of player names/images
Missing avatars is a big clue. Hit steam overlay -> recent players or
whatever, if they don't show up there, they're not actually in the server.
All steam needs to do is keep clients updated on steamIDs auth'd with a server.
TF2 could then just label steamIDs that are being shown on the scoreboard but
not present according to steam as bots. It could evenly passively report this
discrepancy via the abuse system.
It's hardly unwinnable, it just requires adding some more capabilities to
steam. Ideally, we'd just get our server lists from there and not trust servers
to be honest.
- Neph
On 11/02/2011 01:42 PM, Rob Liu wrote:
Can anyone share some tips on identify those "spoof" server? There are a few
servers I know that's doing it, but they're hiding it so well. it's really hard to tell
they're using bots.
On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Fletcher
Dunn<fletch...@valvesoftware.com<mailto:fletch...@valvesoftware.com>> wrote:
The abuse reporting system has only been live a total of 4 days. Give it some
time. There are no plans to give any (non-Valve) entity any special route to
get their claims of abuse escalated more quickly.
There are still simple things we can do to increase player awareness of this
functionality, and we are working on them.
Give it a couple of weeks or so. We'll see how much data we get back from
players, and how effective the system is at curbing these sorts of problems.
Your humble servant,
Fletch
-----Original Message-----
From: hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>
[mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>]
On Behalf Of msleeper
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 12:45 PM
To: Half-Life dedicated Win32 server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds] [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing
usage of player names/images
Fletcher - Is there someone we can report blatantly, aggressively
abusive servers to in an attempt to escalate the worst offenders to
human intervention? I don't think any of us here are expecting a
flawless programmatic solution to the issue of Bad Servers, nor would
we expect Valve staff to spend paid manhours joining and checking
servers instead of working on much more important tasks, but as
someone else said, the 1% worst offenders are "too big to fail" and
seem to be falling through the cracks in your automated systems. The
reporting tool sounds like a great solution, but my immediate concern
is that it might not pan out like you (and us server ops) are hoping
since the vast majority of players probably aren't even aware of such
problems.
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Fletcher Dunn
<fletch...@valvesoftware.com<mailto:fletch...@valvesoftware.com>> wrote:
This is a problem we're obviously aware of. It's definitely not that we don't
care. However, it is essentially an arms race that is provably unwinnable by
Valve. Furthermore, any change we make in the name of security will almost
certainly cause a disruption of legitimate service, due to bugs on our part, or
usage cases we're just not aware of. It is a classic conflict between security
and accessibility.
Hopefully those two reasons help explain our reluctance to address these sorts
of problems through technology. They will create an ongoing arms race, in
which we can possibly limit this activity and make it harder, but probably
never eliminate it completely. Furthermore, this benefit comes at a cost of
taking resources away from adding features and fixing bugs, and also disrupting
legitimate users.
When we can do simple and safe things to make it harder to do these sorts of
things, we will. We have some protocol changes that will make it harder to do
this sort of spoofing, which have been beta tested for some time now. We'll be
rolling those out in the next couple of months.
Crowdsourcing using the abuse reports helps us stay out of the arms race, and
it's the safest and simplest way to deal with this problem and many others like
it.
Your humble servant,
Fletch
-----Original Message-----
From:
hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>
[mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds_linux-boun...@list.valvesoftware.com>]
On Behalf Of Mart-Jan Reeuwijk
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 5:39 AM
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing list
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing usage of
player names/images
there is some italian group that does that.
they have dozens maybe even in the hundred of servers in server list, but all
get redirected to 1 server. and those server report a variety of maps played,
names in server lists etc. you click info, refresh, says for example dustbowl,
and then join, get redirected to their server, with bots, and another map then
advertized in the server info. Its damn annoying. And indeed, they change IP's
a lot, to evade blacklisting.
________________________________
From: daniel jokiaho<daniel.joki...@gmail.com<mailto:daniel.joki...@gmail.com>>
To: Half-Life dedicated Linux server mailing
list<hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com<mailto:hlds_li...@list.valvesoftware.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, 2 November 2011, 7:27
Subject: Re: [hlds_linux] Fake clients, misreported bots, infringing usage of
player names/images
what about servers on different ips and port that have exactly the same
players.
I join server x. U join server y. And still we play against or with each
other :-(
On 2 Nov 2011 06:53,
"msleeper"<mslee...@ismsleeperwrong.com<mailto:mslee...@ismsleeperwrong.com>>
wrote:
Are you sure they're not just adding more servers? Changing IPs is a
server playerbase suicide as anyone who had it bookmarked won't be
able to find it again. I suppose they could use those servers for
redirects, but in theory that would get those IPs blacklisted pretty
fast if Valve's scoring/reputation system is still in effect.
On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 1:42 AM, Jesse
Porter<reacherg...@gmail.com<mailto:reacherg...@gmail.com>>
wrote:
The problem with blacklisting these servers is that they seem to show up
a
few weeks later with a new batch of ip addresses. Can't blacklist them
effectively when they do that.
On Nov 1, 2011 7:40 PM, "Robert
Paulson"<thepauls...@gmail.com<mailto:thepauls...@gmail.com>> wrote:
It is very rude of you to repeatedly spam the mailing list to pressure
Valve into doing whatever you want instead of working on crashes and
content.
Valve has already put in a huge effort making these servers less
prominent.
- Blacklist
- Quickplay
- Reputation
It isn't perfect but blacklisting takes care of the servers you don't
like
once you've spotted them. Quickplay and reputation filter most of the
ones
you haven't spotted yet. No one I know has any problems finding a server
full of real players. Everyone I know just blacklists and move on.
Server IPs do not change often since it costs money to buy new ones and
you
need proper ARIN justification to get more due to the IPV4 shortage. The
fact that you are on here spamming about it as though TF2 is going to
die
out next week makes me think that you are struggling with your own
server
rather than being a concerned player.
I also hate the big pay-to-win servers with fake clients, but it would
be a
mistake for Valve to just de-list them, wrongly assuming no one really
wants to play there. I have a friend who wouldn't be playing TF2 if they
didn't exist and has bought hundreds of dollars worth of Mann Co keys.
And
from what he tells me he isn't the only one. Yes he knows there are
bots.
The "cloaked" bots appeal to him for the same reason Valve decided not
to
name bots bot1, bot2, bot3 and to have them taunt randomly.
These servers still exist not because of a fake player plugin but
because,
as much as it pains us to believe, some players actually prefer them.
No one here is enthusiastic about having Valve delist servers based on
anonymous reports because we all know that the system will be abused
even
though they have "taken basic measures to prevent" it. We know this
because
they also took "measures" to prevent F2P players from avoiding VAC bans
by
making throw-away accounts, yet I still see hackers that have made at
least
5 of them in a row and even adding their old VAC banned account on their
friends list.
To save Valve the administration overhead and abuse, and to satisfy both
server administrators and players, I suggest dropping the server report
function and adding either of these 2 features.
1. Add a check-box for Valve-only/Favorites-only Quickplay servers.
2. Let premium players rate servers from 1 to 5 upon disconnection. Each
player may only vote once. To prevent voter apathy, servers are
automatically rated a 5 if the player does not vote. Then the user can
decide for him/herself to connect to the server based on the rating
rather
than a few opinionated complainers.
These two solutions address the root of the problem and lets the player
decide while freeing Valve to work on more content.
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