Markus,

On 02/10/2014 05:27, Markus Stenberg wrote:
> On 1.10.2014, at 16.20, Benoit Claise <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Based on the previous UCAN BoF, we are considering having
>> an ANIMA WG: Autonomic Networking Integrated Model and
>> Approach This is now a proposed charter, under
>> consideration by the IESG. This is your chance to provide
>> feedback on http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/anima/charter/ 
>> Note also that a BoF has been requested, just in case. 
>> Since HOMENET was mentioned during the UCAN BoF, I thought
>> of double-checking with you guys.
> 
> TL;DR: Please either add homenet (and solutions already in
> the WG) to the WG goals, or drop IoT too and just focus on
> enterprise.

Personal comments on this:

1) One reason for not stating homenet as part of the scope is
that we do not want to interfere with the current progress in
homenet. Personally I think there is a lot to learn from
homenet, but as I just said to Pierre, we are too late to affect
homenet's choices. I will be delighted if the results can be
applied to homenets in future, of course.

2) I am also a little nervous about the IoT reference in the
charter. We haven't yet seen a use case description that would
apply to IoT (which has IMHO a much broader scope than home
networks, e.g. building services.)

I think the initial focus is indeed on enterprise and carrier
networks where the OPEX pain is greatest, but we should not
artificially limit the applicability either.

> 
> Looking at the milestones, I am very curious about lack of
> requirements or architecture work before promoting solutions
> and even WGLCing them.

There are the existing NMRG documents and there will be an
overview document, but we are following quite specific direction
from the ADs about this.

> Notably, adoption of a solution (discovery+negotiation
> protocol) before adoption of use cases seems like putting
> cart before the horse.

Again, we are following direction from the ADs.

> It is not also clear to me how well the suitability of the
> solution has been evaluated. For implementation of some
> autonomic, distributed algorithms, point-to-point negotiation
> protocol such as the suggested solution is far from optimal.
> In case of homenet, we moved from hierarchical DHCPv6 PD
> (point-to-point hierarchy) to a distributed algorithm
> (draft-ietf-homenet-prefix-assignment*) which was result of
> over two years of draft updates, academic proving of
> correctness etc.

There is a subtle point here. The idea is to produce generic
components that do *not* imply specific autonomic algorithms. If
we do it correctly, those components will support either a top
down or a distributed mechanism or even a blend of the two
approaches. So actually the solution choices come later: we
don't have to decide in advance between top-down and peer-to-peer.

> Also, while dropping homenet from list of target things is
> _a_ way to solve the conflict that we already have autonomic
> solution for that particular problem which works (it was
> mentioned there before in e.g. IETF 90 not-quite-WG-forming
> BoF), even better would be to have a general solution that
> _also_ works in a homenet. 

If we were having this discussion 5 years ago, I would agree.
But you homenet guys are ahead of us.

> Especially as IoT is just
> specialized type of homenet, I assume, 

As above - I don't think that's right; IoT is much broader.

> although it is covered
> only by one mention in the whole charter (and the rest does
> not seem very IoT oriented).

So should we say in the charter that the scope is everything but
the initial focus is enterprise and carrier?

> 
> Looking at the solutions, from homenet developer / draft
> writer point of view, I would welcome a general trust
> bootstrapping framework. I am not convinced by the current
> solution draft for that (it assumes too many components for a
> home network case at least). A lot of the other things seem
> somewhat enterprise-y (control plane with IPsec, own routing
> protocol and ULAs? Not in IoT device at least, nor probably
> in constrained homenet router), or just unsuitable, such as
> the negotiation protocol that does not seem like a good fit
> for distributed decision making which is usually the key
> thing in autonomic networking.

That means we have explained the negotiation idea badly. It is
not top-down negotiation like
draft-boucadair-network-automation-requirements. It is peer to
peer with top-down as a special case.

Thanks
   Brian

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