Milton, Too much for me to reply to on my phone so more later. But, I don't know if 802 could override a ratification vote of the rank and file musicians . I do know many times 802 has someone at the table since I was not there I don't know in this situation if they did . But, any orchestra that negotiates a CBA is dealing with conditions that affect them and that group only. As you know there is always a give and take at the negotiating table either spoken or unspoken. You would not give up pay parity for extras without getting something in return. Who knows what that something was. It affects a very small group when there are no vacancies.
Debbie Schmidt Sent from my iPhone On Aug 11, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Milton Kicklighter <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Deb, > > Well I think??? that it is an 802 problem. I may be wrong, but I think that > a > local or the national can veto a contract vote, but I may be wrong. And yes > you > are correct in that there are many many problems facing the industry these > days, > but I don't think that it as much financial as we are made to believe. One > of > the big... very big... bank executives just had his fortune increase by over > 100 > million in one night. That is here in Buffalo, and Buffalo has three > billionaires!!!! that don't give any money to the orchestra. Why???? Who > knows??? Here in Buffalo we can spend many many millions to support sports. > > > But to be fair... and thankful... the city and county have always been > generous > to the orchestra. Far more than most other cities. > > > But there is no question that over the past forty or so years the business > has > become much more "management" orientated that "musician" orientated. Why??? > Boards are all made up of management type people and they understand that > part > of the business much more that the artistic side of the business. > > > There is still that underlying kind of mentality that says: If musicians are > having so much fun playing, and they aren't really working that much.... > practice at home and prep is really not understood by most.... then they > shouldn't make that much money. I know that is an over simplification, but > it > does exist. I was a musician member of the board of directors for over eight > years and I REALLY heard a lot. Not to say that board members did appreciate > the musicians, but in many cases there was just no understanding of the level > of > achievement of their musicians. > > But, it will get better one of these days. Oh yes, and even though I am > retired and no longer HAVE to perform, I still have horn "anxiety" dreams > almost > every night. > > > Milton > Milton Kicklighter > 4th Horn Buffalo Philharmonic > Retired > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Debbie Schmidt <[email protected]> > To: The Horn List <[email protected]> > Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 11:31:07 AM > Subject: Re: [Hornlist] fitting in as part of getting a job > > Actually Milton this is not an 802 issue. The ladies and gentlemen of any > orchestra collectively vote on and agree to a CBA. Same in Buffalo you are > in the end responsible for your destiny. The tenured members of an orchestra > vote on the contract not the whole of the union. > This is obviously a huge issue in town for a variety of reasons. > I think there is a big incentive to hire full time players stability is one > of the things that make great orchestras great. > The business is on the decline for a whole variety of reasons. > > > On 8/11/10 11:21 AM, "Milton Kicklighter" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I am surprised that local 802 would allow this difference in pay. If you are >> good enough to be hired for a NY Phil gig, then you should be paid the >> minimum >> wage the same as any full time player in the orchestra. The orchestra is >> already saving on the benefits paid for those part time musicians. And you >> are >> correct that there are many many wonderful players in 802 most of which could >> fill the positions full time. >> >> So???? what is the incentive to ever fill a position with a full time player >> when you can just hire part timers and save a bundle??? >> >> Another indication as to where the business is going. >> >> When I joined the Buffalo Phil in 1967 the orchestra was 87 musicians and we >> had >> a 38 week season. The management staff consisted of five people. Now the >> orchestra is 72 members and there is a 36 week season and the staff is around >> 30 >> people. What does that tell you guys and girls???? Is it anymore about the >> "music." Conductors, management and guest artist salaries have grown >> tremendously, while musician salaries have in many cases been going down or >> if >> they are lucky, have barely kept up with inflation. >> >> Just the opinion of a now retired horn picker. >> >> Milton >> Milton Kicklighter >> 4th Horn Buffalo Philharmonic >> Retired >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Debbie Schmidt <[email protected]> >> To: The Horn List <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wed, August 11, 2010 10:54:01 AM >> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] fitting in as part of getting a job >> >> Sure subs use to be paid the same as a section fiddle player, or said >> another way, minimum contractual salary for the Philharmonic. Now subs >> (those hired on a week to week basis) get paid based on the CBA for >> freelance orchestras in NY about 25-30% less per week. Once they hire you >> for the season (I would need to check if there is a stipulation for long >> term other then the season) you are paid at the minimum Philharmonic rate. >> There are a whole set of issues arising around wanting people for the season >> but unwilling to commit for the season because of the increase in pay. >> >> >> >> >> On 8/11/10 10:45 AM, "Avrum H. Golub, M.D., J.D." <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> What are the two tiers, Debbie? >>> Avrum >>> >>>> From: Debbie Schmidt <[email protected]> >>>> Reply-To: The Horn List <[email protected]> >>>> Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2010 10:34:51 -0400 >>>> To: The Horn List <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [Hornlist] fitting in as part of getting a job >>>> >>>> Dan and it is cheaper since the Philharmonic went to a 2 tier pay system. >>>> >>>> >>>> On 8/11/10 10:26 AM, "PatentDan Feigelson" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hans, did you see the article last month in the New York Times about the >>>>> large >>>>> number of vacancies in the NY Philharmonic (not just in the horn >>>>> section)? It >>>>> could have been written by you. The article mentioned that it's not a >>>>> lack >>>>> of >>>>> talented players but more a matter of finding someone who will fit into >>>>> the >>>>> section that has resulted in so many vacancies. If anything, the number >>>>> of >>>>> talented musicians in New York means the Philharmonic can take its time >>>>> filling the vacancies, since finding a substitute or extra for any >>>>> particular >>>>> series isn't difficult. >>>>> >>>>> DJF >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> post: [email protected] >>> unsubscribe or set options at >>> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/jasoncat%40aol.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> post: [email protected] >> unsubscribe or set options at >> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/kicklighgter%40yahoo. >> com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> post: [email protected] >> unsubscribe or set options at >> https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/jasoncat%40aol.com > > > _______________________________________________ > post: [email protected] > unsubscribe or set options at > https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/kicklighgter%40yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > post: [email protected] > unsubscribe or set options at > https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/jasoncat%40aol.com _______________________________________________ post: [email protected] unsubscribe or set options at https://pegasus.memphis.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/options/horn/archive%40jab.org
