Hi Spring, hi HOT team members This is not a critique of OSM tagging in general but about the inexistence of documentation and the lack of coordination/communication regarding tags used specifically in HOT. With this thread I want to address HOT team members and experienced HOT contributors. I hope that this time they take the time to respond and act.
If you, Spring, want to help OSM I have a document for you from my Osmaxx project which you could review from a GIS perspective (it will be publicly available soon on github. In the meantime I'll send it to you directly). Cheers, Stefan 2015-05-19 21:38 GMT+02:00 Springfield Harrison <stellar...@gmail.com>: > Hello Stefan & Blake, > > I concur with the comments about the "tag soup" mess. As I have mentioned > before, I am new to this OSM environment but have some years experience with > GPS and GIS mapping and database design. > > To be honest, I was appalled when I discovered that the OSM database design > looked like a glorified scratchpad. I just downloaded and inspected 366,017 > OSM database records. There were 18 Key Terms and scores of values. I > extracted the unique combinations of keys/values and ended up with 388 > records of those. > > It is difficult to describe the results in detail as patterns are very hard > to see with this system. Suffice it to say, there is an abundance of > overlap, redundancy, ambiguity and a confusing intermingling of features and > attributes. Using traditional methods of querying a database, it would be > impossible to definitively extract a meaningful subset of any of the 366,000 > records. Generally speaking, the problem is that one feature may be > described in many different ways that are not consistent. > > Having said all that, since I frequently hear how well all this mapping > information is received in the field, I must conclude that this mishmash of > tagging somehow creates a usable end product. It may well be that I am not > aware of magic techniques that bring order to all this chaotic tagging. > However, if it works, it is good. However I do believe that it will work > better with a more robust database. > > Sorry to offer this harsh critique, but in decades of looking at database > structures for both geographical and administrative applications, I have > never seen such a jumble of terminology. > > Anyway, I have put together what I believe is a more appropriate Data > Dictionary that generally parallels the best practices in database design. > I have found this approach to be very useful, and also useful in the field, > since being introduced to it by Trimble Navigation in the early 90s. > > I am impressed with the enthusiasm that permeates the crowd GIS initiative > but concerned that the geographical and database underpinnings may be less > than ideal. My observation from creating a few software applications, is > that the lesser trained are the users, the much greater investment there > needs to be in the user interface and training. GIS and GPS data collection > is not particularly intuitive. > > My approach in projects of this kind is always to start at the far end with > the users - what information are they wanting for whatever it is that they > do? Then I look at the reporting requirements and finally design the data > collection process to feed into that. > > In the case of this emergency relief operation, I'm hard-pressed to see the > value in mapping video games, hairdresser, gymnastics, karate and > volleyball. To be fair, many of the other attributes could have value in > providing relief services but in the record set that I downloaded, there > seems to be little information related to the emergency relief effort. In > over 366,000 records there are only 19 marked as aeroway = helipad. > > I'm not sure just how thorough you intend to be with the "updating, > streamlining and regularizing" but I would be happy to help where possible. > > It would probably not be overly difficult to substitute a new > feature/attribute catalogue into the OSM database. Translating the existing > mass of keys and values to their new equivalent might be more challenging. > Databases succeed because they conform to standard pattern sets. > > Again, sorry to be less than enthusiastic but perhaps things can be > improved. > > Thanks for your patience, Cheers . . . . . . . . Spring Harrison > > > > > At 17-05-2015 08:29 Sunday, Stefan Keller wrote: >> >> Hi Blake Many thanks for your clarifications. 2015-05-15 22:13 GMT+02:00 >> Blake Girardot <bgirar...@gmail.com> wrote/a écrit: ... > We would welcome >> any assistance with updating, streamlining and regularizing > HOT's tagging >> and tagging guidance and underlying data model if need be. I'd like to help >> and my proposal is 1. to collect and identify most common tags specific to >> HOT 2. to mention and document them in Wiki page "Humanitarian_OSM_Tags" [1] >> So, to begin collecting the candidates, I only foumd these two: * >> damage:event=* * operator:type=private • goveernment • community The >> "idp:camp_site=spontaneous_campp" is already sub-specific to a disaster >> event. Any others tag or key candidates? Yours, S. [1] >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags 2015-05-15 22:13 >> GMT+02:00 Blake Girardot <bgirar...@gmail.com>: > > Hi Stefan, > > HOT (and >> OSM) tagging has grown and evolved since we first started 5 or 6 > years ago >> that is for sure. And given the somewhat intermittent > participatory nature >> of OSM and the wiki things can for sure get out of > sync. > > We would >> welcome any assistance with updating, streamlining and regularizing > HOT's >> tagging and tagging guidance and underlying data model if need be. It > is a >> big project for the folks in and out of HOT who developed and maintain > it. >> > > It was through gentle ;) feedback from the OSM community that we have > >> started use some more planned tagging schemes you mentioned so there is yet >> > time for some of that to catch up. > > I am excited for us to roll up our >> sleeves and give the tagging, guidance, > data model and rendering a timely >> review and updating. At the moment many in > HOT are concentrating on >> working with our fellow travelers in Nepal (and DRC > and Vanuatu and Guam >> and South Sudan and Nigeria and several other places > unfortunately), but >> when that begins to thankfully be less of an urgent > matter several of us >> look forward to joining you fully in the process. > > And like I said, any >> reorganization or updating and streaming in the wiki > you could help us >> with in the mean time will be very welcome and > appreciated. If you have >> any questions please just ask them here on the > mailing list but under a >> different email thread so it is less confusing > talking about something >> that has nothing to do with this thread. > > Cheers, > Blake > > > On >> 5/15/2015 8:43 PM, Stefan Keller wrote: >> >> Salut Pierre, hi Will, dear >> leading HOT members, hello all >> >> 2015-05-15 18:44 GMT+02:00 Pierre >> Béland <pierz...@yahoo.fr >> <mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr>> wrote: >> >>> Such >> a response has brought various discussions on the HOT list on how to >>> >> both respond quickly and assure data quality. >> >> >> I really appreciate >> your work and the work of all contributors. So >> excuse me if I'm little >> bit too harsh now. >> >> I'm trying to to collect the minimal common set of >> HOT tags for >> specifying a renderer, for future use and for OSM quality in >> general. >> >> Will already answered finally in an earlier post (thanks!) - >> but I'm >> sorry to say: What we (OSM) now have in HOT pages is a tag mess >> since >> years! >> >> Please correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps there a >> process on tagging >> mailing list I'm missing? Here's what I found: >> >> >> To me the potential main HOT tag page is "Humanitarian_OSM_Tags" [1]. >> >> This page is very "orphaned" - it has been edited twice since 2013(!?). >> >> It prominently points to "Humanitarian_Data_Background" as "An >> up-to-date >> list of tags for HOT" - being a page which has been updated >> 3.5 years ago >> (!?). >> >> Then I see that no single wiki page with Nepal in its title - >> including >> "2015_Nepal_earthquake" [3] - is pointing to >> Humanitarian_OSM_Tags, >> whereas the Nepal_remote_mapping_guide [4] mainly >> lists the usual main >> tags (like building=yes, natural=wood|water, >> water=*, waterway=river, >> waterway=stream, landuse=farmland). >> >> I >> would expect at least to see tags like damage:event and idp:camp_site >> - >> being top 20 in [6] - to show up in any wiki page related to tags >> >> mentioned above. >> But these aren't even mentioned in the wiki except >> somehow in [4] - but >> which was declared outdated 2013. >> >> How can we >> clean up this under-documented mess and "tag soup" at least >> for a small >> common set of tags? >> >> Yours, S. >> >> [1] >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags >> [2] >> >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags/Humanitarian_Data_Background >> >> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_earthquake >> [4] >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nepal_remote_mapping_guide#Tagging >> >> [5] >> >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags/Humanitarian_Data_Model >> >> [6] http://nepal-taginfo.openstreetmap.hu/keys >> >> >> 2015-05-15 18:44 >> GMT+02:00 Pierre Béland <pierz...@yahoo.fr >> <mailto:pierz...@yahoo.fr>>: >> >> >> >> This OSM response for Nepal is quite challenging. And even more >> >> difficult for our friends at the Kathmandu Living Labs (KLL) who >> >> have to suffer the emotional impact of the second earthquake this >> >> week. They also have to move from the famous Yellow house to a >> school. >> This should assure them a more secure area to work. >> Cheers to them >> that maintain the Nepal earthquake Ushahidi map, >> provide various >> mapping services to the humanitarian in the field >> and assure the >> interface with the Nepal governement and the various >> UN Coordination >> structures for this response (ie The clusters to >> coordinate >> sanitation, water, logistic, food distribution, health, >> etc). >> >> As >> usual, the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap community assures the >> interface >> between the OSM community, the UN agencies and the >> international >> organizations. We support the OSM remote response from >> around the word >> and we co-coordinate with KLL. We both interface >> with the DHNetwork >> digital organization and various other groups via >> Skype. We have a >> great support from the International Charter >> (imagery providers), >> UNOSAT, DigitalGlobe, Airbus, the HIU unit of >> the US State dept., >> Google, and our dedicated OSM/HOT experienced >> contributors and >> developpers. >> >> Plus the various groups that provide the 30 minutes >> updates for the >> various OSM exports. >> >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/2015_Nepal_earthquake#Map_and_Data_Services >> >> Still more challenges to come with the landslides risks and the >> >> monsoon coming soon. >> >> At the same time, it is important to assure a >> good coordination of >> the OSM community from around the world. The >> statistics below show >> great numbers and some challenges with all the >> new contributors that >> participate to the response. Note that these are >> preliminary >> statistics that can be revised later. With less then 3 >> weeks of >> response, we already have edited more the 13 million of >> objects. >> >> The pbf export file increased from 27 megs april 24 to 84 >> megs >> yesterday. Three times bigger. This is quite awesome. It also >> shows >> how we should adapt to such a rapid growth of the OSM database >> for >> Nepal and maintain quality to adequately respond to the >> operational >> needs of the humanitarian organizations in the field. >> >> >> >> Preliminary statistics, Nepal Response Apr-25 May 15, including >> >> worldwide mecchanical edits NB >> Contributors *6,456* >> >> Days *11,877* >> Changeset Sessions *154,048* >> Objects edited >> (ie. Points, lines, polygons) *13,089,247* >> >> >> Such a response >> has brought various discussions on the HOT list on >> how to both respond >> quickly and assure data quality. OSM >> crowdsourcing can be compared to >> an image that we load throug >> internet. First, we have a quite >> inprecise image, coming clearer >> gradually. The Mapathons a bit of this >> role. If unorganized, they >> can bring a lot of data quality problems. >> The worlwide OSM >> community can play a strategic role in such a >> response by >> contributing to structure the way the new contributors >> learn OSM and >> edit the map. For the first day of contribution, what is >> important >> is that people better understand what are the various steps >> and >> provide quality data. If we succeed to bring them a second day to >> >> help, this will show quite a significant succcess since the majority >> >> of them contribute only one day for the response. >> >> There will >> be surely Lessons learned from this Response. For now, I >> suggest that >> people that organize Mapathons communicate with >> activation @ >> hotosm.org <http://hotosm.org> and provide some infos >> about the >> Mapathon >> - who Organize this mapathon >> - town, country >> - >> Name, email of organizers >> - how many experienced osm contributors to >> support the mapathon >> - Nb of people that you plan to receive >> - >> twitter account if you plan to publish updates >> - indicate that you >> give HOT the license to reuse photos that you >> publish on Twitter. This >> can help for outreach and various Blog >> updates. >> >> *Various map >> products* >> >> UNOSAT GDACS Live map with geolocated damage analysis. >> >> >> >> https://unosat.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=b9f9da798f364cd6a6e68fc20f5475eb >> >> >> Visualisation, /Potentially Dangerous Glacial Lakes of Nepal >> >> / >> http://geoportal.icimod.org/storymaps/nepalglakes/ >> >> Lanslides >> in the mountains with the last earthquake this week - See >> this video >> to better understand the reality of people living in >> remote areas of >> Nepal with only paths connecting the high mountain >> villages. >> >> https://twitter.com/pierzen/status/599005434733789185 >> >> A >> Visualisation Gift from Christian Quest of OSM-fr >> New contributions to >> OSM for Nepal >> Awesoooooooooooooooooooooome!!! >> >> http://osm.cquest.org/nepal/#9/27.7139/85.3198 >> http://osm.cquest.org/nepal/#9/27.7139/85.3198 >> >> twitter update on >> this >> https://twitter.com/pierzen/status/599232884982026241 >> Cheers >> all >> >> Pierre >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> > > HOT mailing list >> HOT@openstreetmap.org >> <mailto:HOT@openstreetmap.org> >> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> > > >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > > HOT mailing list >> >> HOT@openstreetmap.org >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list >> HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot > > _______________________________________________ HOT mailing list HOT@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
