On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Alan Kay <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Caroline, > > I think this is a good observation. And it's interesting because Etoys and > Scratch were both done on top of Squeak, and by some of the same people. > Originally Etoys was aimed at 5th graders and Scratch at high schoolers who > dropped into afternoon computer clubs. There is a lot of overlap, and some > important differences. > > The original Etoy interface was set up more like the current Scratch one > (using lots of the screen to show tools and having a small construction > area). This changed when we started working in schools with teachers and > materials (this allowed a less immediately visible UI to be used and the > entire screen to be used for construction). We stayed with this because of > the small size of the XO's screen. But I don't think there's any question > that the current Scratch interface is much much better for new users "off > the street" if you have a large enough screen or can use iPad like scaling. > > And I think despite the small size of the XO, that we should have gone back > to a much more visible interface for it and for general use as gotten from > the web etc.
The TurtleArt approach is similar to Etoys, except you can show/hide all of the construction work as an overlay over the workspace with just one mouse click or keyboard shortcut. Might be a compromise worth exploring further. regards. -walter > > There is much to be learned from both systems. > > Cheers, > > Alan > > > ________________________________ > From: Caroline Meeks <[email protected]> > To: Edward Cherlin <[email protected]> > Cc: Cherry Withers <[email protected]>; Tim McNamara > <[email protected]>; [email protected]; Gerald Ardito > <[email protected]>; Steve Thomas <[email protected]>; iaep > <[email protected]> > Sent: Mon, September 27, 2010 9:21:16 AM > Subject: Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? > > Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and > eToys to 5th and 8th graders. > Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. > I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th > graders took to eToys more. > Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that is > very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before they > have to start understanding programming. > On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with programming > and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. > This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but it > would be interesting to explore further. > > On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to join >> in. >> >> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Edward, >> > Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more >> > "easily discoverable" and I will work on it. >> > Stephen >> > >> > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know >> >> where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could >> >> be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other >> >> education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more >> >> introductory modules. >> >> >> >> Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover >> >> these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the >> >> middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point >> >> is my Wiki page, >> >> >> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable >> >> >> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick >> >> The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and >> >> solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find. >> >> These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS >> >> documentation. >> >> >> >> The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind, >> >> which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it. >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> > The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex things >> >> > in >> >> > all >> >> > of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each >> >> > Activity >> >> > can >> >> > be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike. >> >> > >> >> > Tim >> >> > >> >> > On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers <[email protected]> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it, but it sounded >> >> >> logical >> >> >> to me. >> >> >> Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult tasks. >> >> >> To confirm this statement, I add the phrase: "Visible learning, >> >> >> invisible >> >> >> technology". >> >> >> Children would first learn TurtleArt. >> >> >> When they outgrow it switch to Scratch. >> >> >> When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys. >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> >> > [email protected] >> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin >> >> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. >> >> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. >> >> http://www.earthtreasury.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> >> [email protected] >> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin >> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. >> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. >> http://www.earthtreasury.org/ >> _______________________________________________ >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >> [email protected] >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > > > -- > Caroline Meeks > Solution Grove > [email protected] > > 617-500-3488 - Office > 505-213-3268 - Fax > > > _______________________________________________ > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) > [email protected] > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org _______________________________________________ IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) 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