Alan, Thanks for this. I am just beginning to work with our 5th grade students and teachers and will put this into action.
One question for you, if I may. Can you tell me about the first Etoys lesson you mentioned (with 35 things in 30 minutes)? Thanks again. Gerald On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Alan Kay <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Gerald, > > Yes, I think the "experts" approach is a good one also -- we first saw it > used by Betty Edwards (the drawing teacher) and it works very well if the > ratio is about 1 expert to 6 or 7 learners or better. > > And we have tried this with Etoys (mostly on adult teachers). > > However, of all the ways we've tried, doing one on ones, and then using the > new learners as one on one teachers for the next group (so you are doubling > each time) works the best (and is also the most efficient with regard to how > much time it takes to successfully do the first Etoys exercise -- in which > the learners do and learn about 35 things in about 30 minutes). > > Best regards, > > Alan > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito <[email protected]> > *To:* Alan Kay <[email protected]> > *Cc:* Caroline Meeks <[email protected]>; Cherry Withers < > [email protected]>; [email protected]; Tim McNamara < > [email protected]>; Steve Thomas <[email protected]>; iaep < > [email protected]> > *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 4:31:13 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? > > Alan, > > First, I just want to clarify that I meant "challenged" in a positive way. > The 5th graders dove into Etoys first through painting, and then through > scripting. However, I agree with what you say about artifacts of a > pedagogical approach. We saw this, too. > > Our learning situation involved 4-6 student "experts" with whom I spent > time showing them the key elements of Etoys needed to begin the project. > Then, when we introduced this project to larger class, these "experts" were > free to move around the room helping other students. > > We found this model to be a good one for generating a very productive > classroom environment with the XOs (in fact, it was the topic of my > dissertation which I completed last May). However, I wished we had spent > more time with the scripting piece. We had not developed those skills > enough. > > Thanks. > Gerald > > On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Alan Kay <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I'd be curious to hear what the process is with the 5th graders. These >> were our main subjects. We worked only through regular classroom teachers >> (who had been carefully coached). You will not see any "challenged" 5th >> graders if you use a one on one session with them for about 20-30 minutes. >> The best way to do this is to teach a few this way, and then use "a >> spreading wave" of one on ones. We found that this was much better with both >> children and adults than to try to teach all of them in mass. >> >> So you might be seeing artifacts of pedagogical approach here (and a lot >> of "challenged" students result from such artifacts). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Alan >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Dr. Gerald Ardito <[email protected]> >> *To:* Caroline Meeks <[email protected]> >> *Cc:* Cherry Withers <[email protected]>; [email protected]; >> Tim McNamara <[email protected]>; Steve Thomas < >> [email protected]>; iaep <[email protected]> >> *Sent:* Mon, September 27, 2010 2:29:57 PM >> >> *Subject:* Re: [IAEP] Etoys, is it difficult or easy? >> >> Caroline, >> >> You are remembering well. And I agree with your hypothesis. >> >> The 5th graders took pretty well to Etoys. It is the drawing piece that >> hooks them, and then the scripting part that really challenges them. And the >> 7th and 8th graders love Scratch. It is interesting to me because they also >> do plenty of "painting" of sprites and backgrounds, but something about the >> bricks seems to match their thinking process. >> >> I am getting ready to introduce my current 7th grade classes to Scratch >> and am looking forward to that. >> >> Thanks. >> Gerald >> >> On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:21 PM, Caroline Meeks < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Gerald did some interesting work last year introducing both Scratch and >>> eToys to 5th and 8th graders. >>> >>> Gerald please correct me if I am misremembering. >>> >>> I think the results were the 8th graders took to Scratch more and the 5th >>> graders took to eToys more. >>> >>> Our hypothesis is that the first thing you do with eToys in draw and that >>> is very accessible to 5th graders. They can engage with the system before >>> they have to start understanding programming. >>> >>> On the other hand 8th graders were directly ready to engage with >>> programming and had a easier/faster time picking that up with Scratch. >>> >>> This is very much a hypothesis, not proven and not based on much data but >>> it would be interesting to explore further. >>> >>> On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Edward Cherlin <[email protected]>wrote: >>> >>>> OK, I'll send it to you separately. Anybody else is still welcome to >>>> join in. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 20:47, Steve Thomas <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> > Edward, >>>> > Thanks, please send me the outline and what you think needs to be more >>>> > "easily discoverable" and I will work on it. >>>> > Stephen >>>> > >>>> > On Sat, Sep 25, 2010 at 6:06 PM, Edward Cherlin <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> It is true that you can do all of these things in EToys, if you know >>>> >> where to start. It is also true that the start screen of EToys could >>>> >> be improved by providing a path to each of them, and to other >>>> >> education modules, and Etoys could be improved with a few more >>>> >> introductory modules. >>>> >> >>>> >> Since children and untrained teachers cannot be expected to discover >>>> >> these paths, and paths in other Activities, on their own, I am in the >>>> >> middle of writing a guide to Discovery on the XO. The starting point >>>> >> is my Wiki page, >>>> >> >>>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable >>>> >> >>>> >> http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_on_a_Stick >>>> >> The undiscoverable is an unofficial FAQ for tips, tricks, and >>>> >> solutions to common problems that may otherwise be tricky to find. >>>> >> These are being considered for inclusion in the official SoaS >>>> >> documentation. >>>> >> >>>> >> The Etoys section needs vast expansion. I have an outline in mind, >>>> >> which I can share with anybody who would like to work on it. >>>> >> >>>> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 15:59, Tim McNamara < >>>> [email protected]> >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> > The analogy doesn't quite fit, as it's possible to do complex >>>> things in >>>> >> > all >>>> >> > of those tools and it's easy to do simple things in EToys. Each >>>> Activity >>>> >> > can >>>> >> > be used in this learning model, e.g. training wheels to motorbike. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Tim >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On 25 September 2010 05:48, Cherry Withers <[email protected] >>>> > >>>> >> > wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> And Scratch? ... don't remember where I read it, but it sounded >>>> >> >> logical >>>> >> >> to me. >>>> >> >> Use progressively difficult tools for progressively difficult >>>> tasks. >>>> >> >> To confirm this statement, I add the phrase: "Visible learning, >>>> >> >> invisible >>>> >> >> technology". >>>> >> >> Children would first learn TurtleArt. >>>> >> >> When they outgrow it switch to Scratch. >>>> >> >> When all its possibilities are exhausted, continue with eToys. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > _______________________________________________ >>>> >> > IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >>>> >> > [email protected] >>>> >> > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >>>> >> > >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> -- >>>> >> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin >>>> >> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. >>>> >> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. >>>> >> http://www.earthtreasury.org/ >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >>>> >> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >>>> >> [email protected] >>>> >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धर्ममेघशब्दगर्ज/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin >>>> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation. >>>> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination. >>>> http://www.earthtreasury.org/ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!) >>>> [email protected] >>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Caroline Meeks >>> Solution Grove >>> [email protected] >>> >>> 617-500-3488 - Office >>> 505-213-3268 - Fax >>> >> >> >> > >
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