Pennies. The Toolkit is highly worth it. First Horizon Bank Mainframe Technical Support
-----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 6:17 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op [External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.] > Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR. Would you consider looking at the Wikipedia article on Wylbur and adding some information? > Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit > (separately chargeable as I understand it). Yes, HLASM itself is bundled but the Toolkit is an extra charge. -- Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3 ________________________________________ From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of ste...@copper.net [ste...@copper.net] Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 3:15 PM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op Years ago, in Silicon Valley, I worked on ACS/OBS WYLBUR. We had a P/390 that I had tuned the I/O for to really speed it up. ACS also sold time on their systems. Contractually, we were only allowed to charge access costs for the P/390. It was not to be a "production" machine. So developers could buy access to it, but not on a "per CPU time" charge and related. We did have a few takers for the P/390. The system Charles has mentioned has certain caveats and issues. One can't control their z/OS image, because the DASD for the RES is controlled by the data center. If one were to obtain a z/OS license, and were to get it to run under KVM, then one could have a "production" system, where all source is handled, compiles done, etc., while all system level testing is done on another image. There are costs with this that have to be overcome. Let's take a look into the future: IBM is going to put out a release of VM and/or z/OS that will not run on a z/?? CEC and that is the one you have (or SUSE/RHEL, etc. does the same with KVM etc.). You will now have to migrate to another machine. Can you get that machine on the used market at a good price? Meanwhile, you must have HLASM and probably want to have the toolkit (separately chargeable as I understand it). You will need all the compilers being used COBOL, PL/1, c/C++, etc.. Can you get them under a development license? Ok, let's say you can. You may need to have a small machine that is used for compiles so that you do not have to pay for the compilers on the bigger box. Given that you are going to have those who are doing development where they will need to have multiple CPUs, what you want is the slowest machine you can get (sub-model?) but with 4-6 General CPs for race condition testing. Now depending on the number of people/entities interested in this system, one may need multiple LPARs and possibly CECs to handle the workload. If I could (and because of who I work for, and for those of you who think I work for Humana, I did at one time, but things change...), I would go to a University or college and propose this: A Mainframe Academic center. And I would tie that with somehow teaching COBOL (it ain't dead, and it is still growing), and possibly CICS & DB2. If IBM still does an academic licensing thing, then this is the cheapest way to go that I am aware of. And if you can get the school to do an open semester year tuition allowing one to do self directed studies.... Believe me, with all the outsourced contractors I deal with who have degrees in IT Theory and absolutely no PROGRAMMING experience outside of some OO language, I could see this being something that might get some traction since with COVID-19 we just found out that we can do classes virtually to anywhere (those of us who have been working from Home for decades already knew that). And you might get certain companies to throw in their tools, such as z/XDC for a low price. Ok, maybe more than 2 cents, but these are my observations having done some of this before Outsourcing organizations became Cloud companies. THE HEADACHE not yet mentioned is, one may not be able to get support for this system. So one may have to wait until a production machine somewhere hits your problem to get an APAR/PTF. Regards, Steve Thompson --- charl...@mcn.org wrote: From: Charles Mills <charl...@mcn.org> To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: [IBM-MAIN] Mainframe co-op Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:41:52 -0700 A model to look at might be the IBM Innovation Center, Dallas. The price is higher than what I picture as your target: $550/month and up IIRC. You get two dedicated VM virtual machines: one that runs CMS and that you use as a console. You can do limited console automation with Rexx. And one on which you IPL z/OS. The z/OS -- any current version that you want -- runs from shared read-only DASD that IBM maintains: PTFs and so forth are IBM's problem. You get just about every IBM product that you could possibly want -- again, read-only DASD, with IBM doing the PTFs. For $550 IIRC you get everything you "need." More DASD, lots and lots of CPU cycles, etc. entail an upcharge. You "own" the configuration. If you want to muck up SYS1.PARMLIB so that z/OS will not IPL, it's your gun, your bullet, your foot. I have never done it, so I don't know, but I would assume IBM has some way of getting you back running. You "own" RACF. You can have as many userid's as you care to define. If you want to experiment with permissions in any way you choose, go at it. IBM provides very limited support: (1) if you need help you can ask by e-mail: sometimes you get great help, sometimes not; (2) no PMR support. You are not a z/OS licensee and thus not entitled to PMR support. I would assume that if you had some fatal problem you could go route (1) and get IBM to address it somehow: I have no experience. It is a good option for an individual or small company just a little above your intended price point. You have to a certain extent the best of both worlds: you have a z/OS that you can do with as you wish just as if you owned the box; and you have IBM doing the z/OS PTFs and basic installs and volume backups and so forth that I at least don't care to do. You do not have to do any initial install: your z/OS will IPL on day one. It is current hardware. I believe we are currently running on a z14. There are also offerings for VM, VSE and Linux IIRC but I am not familiar with them. You cannot do "production." You can let customers on for demos, but that is it. (Speaking from memory; I am not an IBM attorney.) You have to be a "software vendor" developing a "mainframe product" but my impression is that IBM's bar is pretty low: you don't have to be BMC or CA. You might consider using that as a model. I think it is a GREAT starting point for thinking about this. You might ask yourself "how do we tune that model so that we could get the price down to $X?" ... whatever you think your $X should be. And if you wanted to involve IBM in your discussions the Dallas folks might be the right place to start. http://dtsc.dfw.ibm.com/MVSDS/'HTTPD2.ENROL.PUBLIC.SHTML(ZOSRDP)' Hopefully that link works. I am not sure PDS's make the best Web repositories. (Gasp! Mainframe heresy!) Charles -----Original Message----- From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Grant Taylor Sent: Friday, July 3, 2020 10:50 AM To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Mainframe co-op On 7/3/20 11:13 AM, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Interesting. Some questions come to mind. Discussion is good. > Would it have to have current software to attract the open source > community? I don't think that bleeding edge is needed in any way shape or form. My personal interest would be something in the z/OS family. The bottom end of what is still supported would be a minimum desired version. But I think anything in z/OS is better than was is readily available now. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Confidentiality notice: This e-mail message, including any attachments, may contain legally privileged and/or confidential information. 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