>>> I don't think clicker training is something you should do casually. I don't think I would again start clicker training a horse and then walk away leaving the initial behaviors (I think I did this to one of Karen's horses based on her story of Trausti backing up - sorry, Karen),
Hey, Sue, no problem. You didn't know. Heck, I didn't know or I wouldn't have offered to let people use my horses in the clicker clinic that day. If I'd thought it your fault, I would have told YOU what I thought you did wrong. That's what bothered me. I can't say that you did anything wrong, not that I saw. Everyone I'd expressed concerns with c/t on this list had assured me, oh, it's SO hard to screw up, it's so forgiving, yada, yada. Yet, they will turn around and give the pat answer, "Oh, you just have to work through that" regarding mugging, the offering of unwanted behaviors, etc. Why on earth teach a behavior where you KNOW you're going to get unwanted behaviors - even if you do it right? I THINK you did it right that day. My goodness, I'm not that good. When I start something new, I KNOW I'm going to make mistakes. In that case, Trausti was one of my EASY horses, and after what - 45 minutes? I had to spend at least 4-5 hours undoing it. Trausti does not see a clicker now - if I could figure out how, I'd be tempted to teach him to maul the next person who shows him the clicker! Yeah, that would be fun, a clicker-attack horse! :) I have NO problem giving him a cue with the subtlest of head tilt or by straightening up. And you know what? Horses that have never been Parelli trained also will respond, because the HORSES DON'T have to be taught the Natural Horsemanship "rules." They KNOW them. They are either born knowing them, or they learn soon after being born. They are not the "Parelli" rules. It's horse language. Someone who understands horse body language can work with my horses as well as I can. However, no well how well someone knows clicker training, they cannot work with my horses based on clicker rules - because my horses don't know those rules. There are no clickers in the wild. When my cousin's horses got out in the middle of the night a few months ago, running willy-nilly around town, very excited, I was able to catch one of the mares by approach and retreat, tilting my head occasionally, getting small when I needed to - simply using horse language. The others immediately settled and followed her home. She's never been taught Parelli, but she IS a natural-born horse, who basically likes people. A clicker would have been absolutely worthless in that situation. She had never seen a clicker. If anything, a clicker would have spooked them into further frenzy in that situation. Maybe this is a clue: many horses spook at the click the first time they hear it. It's totally a learned system and without the rulebook, both horse and human are lost. It doesn't make it totally bad, but it is a clue to me that it should NEVER be the fundamental communication the owner depends on. >>> or let rudeness take hold and never work the horse through it to the other side (I think this might have happened to Karen's horse Eitell - Karen correct me if I'm wrong). I think this is what Karen has experienced at her place...casual clicker training...and I think it's a mistake. Sort of...but I would NOT say that Eitill was "casually" clicker trained. . I wasn't going to bring it up on the list, naming names, but I guess it's easier to be blunt, so I can be very specific. Yes, Eitill IS rude at times. Not for the farrier though - I'm sure Marcus thinks he's as nice as any horse he trims. Not for the vet. Not for anyone - MOST of the time. There are times when Eitill is THE perfect horse, but there are times when he's a brat. Well...no, not a brat. He's frustrated and trying to work the rules as he knows them, but the net effect is essentially that he can be rude. He gets frustrated because he and I don't agree on what is his birthright and what is his privilege. I don't think he enjoys our miscommunications any more than I do. BUT I think he was clicker trained fairly seriously - I would not say casually - with a lot of good behaviors resulting. I wasn't there when before he was clicker trained, nor while it was happening. I didn't train him, but I've found some situations where he's absolutely obnoxious - holes in his training, yep, but who knew? He's also sweet. He's also got gaits out the wazoo. He's eager, and he was supposedly sort of spooky as a youngster, but not any more. I only rode him the first 6 months or so that I had him in situations where he was familiar with riding - mostly on the trail with some riding in the ring. He was almost perfect. The problem only showed up when I started to teach him a couple of new things. I don't know clicker training all that well and based on the great success I've had with various NH/common-sense training, I don't really care to learn it. That's when Eitill got frustrated. I asked him for sidepass. He started offering a thousand answers. How 'bout this... no, that? I ignored. What about this? I ignored. OH! Isn't that what I was supposed to do? Seventy-five tries later:.sidepass. Click. He was like, Oh, THAT'S what you wanted. If two steps of sidepass are good, then 93 steps must be better. I ignored. Around and around the ring we went. And I ignored, and by golly, I'm still ignoring sometimes. I have NEVER had it take so long to get a horse to sidepass and now if he starts, I can barely get him to stop. Oh, it's better, much better, but he still offers it occasionally when I don't want it. I STILL ignore that. Ignoring is NOT fun. Not fun for me, or for the horses who are trying to be good. (Or trying to get a cookie...) Remember, I never saw this as long as we were doing what he already knew how to do...And remember, I've trained and retrained a number of horses now. I've never seen anything like this before. I saw a lot of good in Eitill's past clicker training, but I will be very sparing in how I do it in the future - if I ever use it. Anyway, this is why I'm SICK of clicker training. (Well, it also didn't help that Sue's c/t mare, Brenna, bit me the last time we were together!) I didn't start it with either of these horses - but I got stuck with dealing with it. Trausti went through the 12-step clicker withdrawal program (actually MANY more than 12-steps, all backing up) and he's over it - I THINK. I won't try to teach Eitill anything else new - I have WAY too many horses to deal with that again, so I'll enjoy him as the good trail horse that he is. Kind of sad isn't it? I have a great horse with a good mind but to teach him anything new, I need to teach him that he doesn't need to think about clickers. Or else, maybe I need to learn a LOT more about c/t. Either way, it will take time - a waste of time to me. I think I could have started a totally green horse under saddle, complete with ground driving in the time I spent undoing the clicker training of Trausti and Eitill. AND, most importantly, the new, green horse wouldn't have gone through all this frustration. That's the real kicker for me. If someone tells you that it's hard to screw up clicker training, I invite you to come here and ask Eitill to sidepass. Then we can start a support group for the Clicker Abused Owners Who Didn't Ask for This. Karen Thomas, NC -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.11/721 - Release Date: 3/13/2007 4:51 PM
