Thanks Eric, this is all good info to have and saves us all some steps :)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Coffman
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:46 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] NEW SVC AGREEMENT PRICES - Please Read
Here is a brief assessment of each so far: I will elaborate if there is
interest.
Merak - It is quite proprietary. It has its own web server and runs a
custom compiled PHP binary. The interface is nice but editing it is a
nightmare. They have lots of branding on it and it is forbidden to
remove it according to the comments in the code. I spent all morning
trying to change the login box just a little bit and ended up with 15
files opened that were included in the homepage. I eventually gave up.
It has the a nice data store format for messages. Each email is a
separate file in maildir format. Read files end in 02.tmp and unread
files end in 40.tmp (or something close to that) so it is easy to keep
track of things. Backup and restore would be very easy with this one.
Lots of info on the website and support seems to be readily available.
Has a nice PDA theme.
Smartermail - Nice interface, uses asp.net code and is very clear what
is happening in the pages. There is no GUI admin tool, the whole thing
is web based. The mail storage is complex. Each user folder has a
mailbox file for each date. The messages appear to be close to maildir
format but the top of the file has some binary garbage. Tracking of
read/unread messages is done via a binary index file. if you delete it
or it gets corrupt all messages get marked read. They seem less
established with little info on the website, a low activity forum.
Doesn't have ODBC support for user list.
Mdaemon - The web interface is ran via a DLL. Want to customize it?
Sorry, it is a compiled DLL. It tracks read/unread messages via a binary
index file although individual messages are individual maildir like
formatted text files. Has a nice PDA theme. The web interface seemed
confusing to me.
MailEnable - Web interface is asp. API seems well documented, uses a
reliable IIS web server (no proprietary crap). Each page of the template
is simple asp and can be easily modified. The WYSIWYG editor works in
Mozilla and IE. The mail storage format is individual files in maildir
format. The tracking of read/unread messages is done via an XML index
file per folder. MMC integrated administration tool that is very easy to
use. The company is in Australia so forget phone support...
My choice so far is MailEnable (Enterprise). I am testing it out now
pretty heavily. I expect to have custom templates done in a few days and
drop Imail completely across all my domains before the new year.
Overall my requirements are:
- preferably asp (.net or php wil do) for easy customization
- proven web server (IIS or Apache) I hate proprietary stuff
- mail storage in maildir format with a text readable index or a simple
way to identify read/unread messages (no binary garbage)
- PDA interface or ability to easily make one (try that with Imail...
hahahah)
- Would like WYSIWYG html editor that works in both browsers
- Spell checker that actually works (try that with Imail... hahahah)
- Ability to do cleanup (dump messages older than X number of days,
etc)
- Decent support and proven record of actually fixing bugs
- Reasonable price (relative to Imail everything else looks very
cheap)
- ODBC connection for account list
- Spam control
- It would be nice to have an AV option but this can be done via a mail
gateway
I personally do not need calendaring, instant messaging, integrated
media players, integration with groupwise, XM satellite integration,
etc. I just need a decent webmail server that works and that will easily
integrate with my portal.
Eric
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/27/2004 11:31:29 PM >>>
Couldn't agree more.
By the way. From the installations you have tested - Merak,
> SmarterMail, Mdaemon, MailEnable,...- what do you like the best so
far.
-Luis Arango
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:IMail_Forum-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Coffman
> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 8:51 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] NEW SVC AGREEMENT PRICES - Please Read
>
> Hello,
>
> I have a few points to consider:
>
> 1. Why would you want to bundle Instant Messaging and Outlook
> integration as a forced option? It may be a decent deal if all of
the
> services were used but if all you want is a webmail server the
> additional cost is just a waste of money. As a company would it not
be
> better to get SOME money from smaller clients than NONE?
>
> 2. I have been using Imail since version 6. I have bought 3
unlimited
> licenses and service agreements for 3 sites every year. In that time
I
> have called Ipswitch 5 times give or take one. So from that, I have
paid
> for 9 service agreements at $495 each for a total of $4455. That
amounts
> to about $900 a call for support. What I can tell you is that in
each
> case Ipswitch was very unresponsive to my needs. I honestly got the
> feeling that the support person simply wanted to get me off of the
> phone. I have submitted several enhancement requests for BUGS in the
> software. The support person confirmed the problem, noted my
problem,
> and told me I would be informed by email when it was fixed. In 3
years I
> have not seen one bug I reported fixed, nor has support fixed my
issue
> in any case. One bug that I can still duplicate in seconds causes
the
> webmail server to consume 100% processor still exists today. At this
> point I consider the $495 per year per installation "upgrade
assurance"
> as the phone support has been largely useless. If you can't survive
on
> $900 a call you have serious problems. That said I suggest something
> along the lines of each year of support comes with 1 or 2 support
calls.
> Each additional call would be pay per incident. I could understand
that
> totally.
>
> 3. You really have to be reasonable. Imail is nowhere near the
quality
> or the capability of Exchange. That is a fact that you cannot refute
> under any circumstance. Lots of people buy Chevy Cavaliers too... It
is
> a decent car in that it runs and does what it is supposed to do,
like
> Imail in some respects. Now, most Cavalier owners would rather have
a
> BMW 330i. Problem is it is too costly. There is no doubt it is
better
> than the Cavalier but it is just too costly for the regular guy. Now
if
> the Cavalier suddenly became expensive, at say 70% to 80% of the BMW
it
> would no longer be a viable option as its cost/benefit would be very
> negative in comparison. Your product is in that situation.
>
> The problem that I face now is lack of trust in your company and
have
> spent the past 2 days installing your competitors software. Merak,
> SmarterMail, Mdaemon, MailEnable, etc are ALL more featured, have a
WAY
> better web interface, and cost WAY less. At this point I am
absolutely
> certain that I will be moving from Imail. If Ipswitch hadn't made
this
> choice I would have been a paying customer for years to come. If the
> other companies can survive on their costs while making continual
> improvements why is Ipswitch unable to do the same while making
> virtually no improvements?
>
> One of the great things about the web is that Google and the Wayback
> machine websites will cache this entire fiasco. Every decent
sysadmin
> that considers ICS or any Ipswitch product will search the web and
find
> this thread during their evaluation and likely reconsider or at
least
> add doubt.
>
> This is totally sickening. I feel for the poor programmers who will
> loose their jobs over this.
>
> Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/27/2004 2:19:10 PM >>>
> Hi Bryan,
>
>
>
> The service agreement prices include the AV subscription renewals as
> well as
> service on the components in the ICS bundle (which in the case of
the
> ISP/EDU bundle is IMail, KWM and AV). There is one typo in the list
> concerning the renewal of the ICS ISP Edition - that number should
> read
> $3,995 instead of $4,995.
>
>
>
> What I would be curious to know is -
>
>
>
> 1) Since that $3,995 number includes subscription for
unlimited
> Symantec AV, would it be more palatable to have two tiers for the
ISP
> bundles - perhaps a 1,000 user level and an unlimited level? This
> would
> substantially drop the cost of the renewal (I can't give numbers, as
I
> don't
> have them - since at the moment this is hypothetical).
>
> 2) If we were to continue to offer a stand-alone Service
> Agreement for
> IMail, what would be a fair price for such an agreement? Please
bear
> in
> mind that the current $495 does not cover our Support costs, let
alone
> our
> Development costs.
>
>
>
> I am asking this forum these questions, not to start another flame,
but
> to
> get some feedback - I would appreciate everyone's use of correct
forum
> etiquette. It is difficult for me to post here in good faith while
> getting
> personally flamed.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jill
>
> _____
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bryan E.
> Martin
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] Cross-grade concerns addressed (NEW SVC
> AGREEMENT
> PRICES)
>
>
>
> Jill,
>
>
>
> I received a PowerPoint presentation from Renee Breckenridge, my new
> account
> manager, which also gave the ICS Annual Renewal fees (new service
> agreement
> fees). They were as follows:
>
>
>
> STANDARD EDITION:
>
> 25 Users $375
>
> 100 Users $995
>
> 250 Users $1495
>
> Unlimited Users $2995
>
>
>
> PREMIUM EDITION:
>
> 25 Users $449
>
> 100 Users $1295
>
> 250 Users $2695
>
> Unlimited Users $4995
>
>
>
> ISP/EDU EDITION:
>
> Unlimited Users $4995
>
>
>
> Should I decide to actually purchase ICS Standard Unlimited just to
> keep
> running IMail Server and receiving support and upgrades to a product
I
> have
> invested three years of my time and profit in, my annual renewal fee
> will
> increase from $495 to a minimum of $2995, over 600%. But just to
get
> there,
> I have to also jump the $4995 hurdle, which is over a 1000% increase
in
> the
> first year.
>
>
>
> All I have ever used is IMail Server. That's all I want, that's all
I
> need,
> but Ipswitch is no longer going to provide me with that option.
Jill,
> would
> Ipswitch rather have $0 from my company than $495? Is that truly
the
> better
> deal financially for the company? Please respond to this e-mail.
You
> have
> been very active in the form today. I would appreciate a
> straightforward
> response to my inquiry.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bryan E. Martin
>
> Ziggycom Online, Inc.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jill Jones
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:22 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [IMail Forum] Cross-grade concerns addressed
>
>
>
> Hi Doug,
>
>
>
> I hope that this post will address many of the concerns I have read
on
> the
> forum yesterday and today in regards to crossgrading from IMail to
> ICS.
>
>
>
> If you have a current Service Agreement for IMail or IIM, and are
not
> interested in crossgrading to ICS, you will receive service for the
> life of
> your SA. This means that when we release software updates, such as
> 8.14,
> 8.15, etc., you will get those updates just as you always have. You
> will
> also continue to receive phone support for the life of your
agreement.
> Ipswitch is not taking anything away in terms of service or support
for
> the
> current product.
>
>
>
> If you have a current Service Agreement for IMail or IM and are
> interested
> in crossgrading to ICS, then you will get a year of service, for all
> components in your ICS bundle, added to your existing SA.
>
>
>
> Here are some examples of how this works:
>
> If I own IMail and my SA expires in January 05 and I crossgrade to
ICS
> in
> November 04, then I have service on all ICS components until January
06
> -
> even the ones that I did not own previously.
>
>
>
> If I own IMail and my SA expires in January 05 and I have Symantec
> Scan
> Engine, which expires in March of 05 - but I choose to crossgrade to
> ICS in
> November of 04, then I have service on all ICS components until
March
> of 06.
>
>
>
> Also, bear in mind, that the crossgrade and renewal prices include
> subscription fees and are not just for service and support.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jill
>
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug
> Anderson
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:38 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [IMail Forum] Getting facts on this straight before
> speaking to
> boss
>
>
>
> That SHOULD be when it comes time for SA renewal. My complaint
(maybe
> along
> with other corporate users) is
>
> we paid the SA. That SA should of been prorated to December 31 if
you
> have
> to buy before the 31. That 5995 actually is plus because our SA
hasn't
> run
> out.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Allen Taylor <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:54 PM
>
> Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] Getting facts on this straight before
> speaking to
> boss
>
>
>
> Limited-time offer until December 31, 2004
> Special offer for IMail Server and Ipswitch Instant Messaging
customers
>
> (You will be required to enter your valid serial number or service
> agreement
> number during your purchase. Offer valid for IMail server versions 7
> and up
> and all versions of Ipswitch Instant Messaging.)
>
>
> 25 seats
>
> $695
> <http://www.ipswitch.com/purchase/crossgradeoffer.asp?SPN=MS-6101>
> Order
>
> 100 seats
>
> $1,495
> <http://www.ipswitch.com/purchase/crossgradeoffer.asp?SPN=MS-6111>
> Order
>
> <http://www.ipswitch.com/Purchase/SASOffer.asp?SPN=ME-3000> 250
seats
>
>
> $2,995
> <http://www.ipswitch.com/purchase/crossgradeoffer.asp?SPN=MS-6211>
> Order
>
> Unlimited seats
>
> $5,995
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jill Jones
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 1:11 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [IMail Forum] Getting facts on this straight before
> speaking to
> boss
>
>
>
> Hi Sharyn,
>
>
>
> What Edition are you interested in, Standard, Premium or ISP?
>
>
>
> The renewal costs for each of those unlimited editions are $2,295,
> $4,995
> and $2,295, respectively.
>
>
>
> Jill
>
>
>
>
> _____
>
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sharyn
> Schmidt
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 8:19 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [IMail Forum] Getting facts on this straight before
speaking
> to
> boss
>
>
>
> Suppose I want to fork over the cost of the special price for
current
> service agreement holders, which looks like $5,995.00 for unlimited
> seating..
>
> I get a year's service agreement with the upgrade software.
>
> Next year, I want to renew the agreement.
>
> Will the new service agreement also cost me another $5,995.00????
>
> Sharyn
>
>
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