Thanks Chris. I agree, this needs further consideration. Regards, Ashwini
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:22, C CHADWELL <[email protected]> wrote: > > The additional observations and photos are helpful. > > I think this illustrates that this genus needs further study/checking. > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk <http://www.shpa.org.uk/> > > > > > > > From: Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Cc: efloraofindia <[email protected]>; Anil Thakur > <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, 7 October 2016, 11:21 > Subject: Re: Mazus surculosus ? > > Dear Chris and Dr Thakur, > Thank you both very much for your advice. My apologies for a late reply! I > wanted to revisit the plant and collect more evidence before writing. I found > the plant this morning and here are some observations with photographs; > > 1. Calyx lobes (8-9mm) are longer than the peduncle (5mm) > 2. Calyx lobe edges are not toothed > 3. The stem bearing flowers is hairy and runner-like > 4. Flowers edge out the calyx slightly in corolla length. > > Please advise. > > Thanks. > Ashwini > > > <_MG_7482_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7489_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7491_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7492_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7506_07Oct2016.jpg> > >> On 7 Oct 2016, at 01:00, [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Thanks Dr Thakur for drawing this to my/our attention. Mostly a question of >> me too rapidly assuming a likely identification without checking properly - >> especially with plants from what are 'low' elevations for me. As soon as it >> gets to 2000m or less, my familiarity and knowledge rapidly decreases! I >> know little of the Mazus genus, >> largely limited to a casual look at specimens growing around Manali some 30 >> years ago.... I now see that Stewart gave Mazus delavayii as a synonym for >> M.japonicus (also M.rugosus). He found this common, ascending to 2100m in >> rice fields and pond borders in N.Pakistan and Kashmir. >> >> A common mistake I have observed is for people to assume that 'Flowers of >> the Himalaya' is a FULL flora. It is merely a guide to a fraction of the >> total flora (often not much more than 1/10th described or illustrated), >> concentrating on the commonest and showiest species. Too many users of this >> book automatically "match" at a quick glance what they see or photograph in >> the Himalaya with the single photo in that book. Often the image does not >> show important characteristics which distinguish it from similar species. >> This leads to numerous misidentifications. Many do not bother to check the >> geographic distribution, altitudinal range or typical habit for each species >> to see if the identification makes sense or should be double or >> triple-checked! >> >> I am not a taxonomist but would think that characteristics of calyces are >> stronger than the presence or not of runners. I am curious where the key to >> Mazus species in H.P. comes from? >> >> I note from images taken in H.P. that some examples have much smaller >> calyces in relation to the flowers - though these seem also to have the >> calyx +/- cut to half way as well. So are these within Mazus surculosus or >> M. pumilus var. delavayii? >> >> See: http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Suckering%20Mazus.html >> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Suckering%20Mazus.html> (I >> would not described the calyx as 'toothed') and >> https://forwildlife.wordpress.com/wild-flowers-of-kalatope-khajjiar-sanctuary/wildflowers-in-june/ >> >> <https://forwildlife.wordpress.com/wild-flowers-of-kalatope-khajjiar-sanctuary/wildflowers-in-june/> >> (I would say the calyx here is definitely not just toothed and approaches >> the being lobed half way down). >> >> As for the line drawing in FOC for M.surculosus, this shows small calyces >> which could be described as having toothed lobes), see: >> http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=3540&flora_id=2 >> <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=3540&flora_id=2> and >> then there are the line drawings for M.pumilus see: >> http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=4701&flora_id=2 >> <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=4701&flora_id=2> (I would >> say that the images taken by Ashwini certainly have a prominent calyx, small >> flowers in relation to the calyx and do not fit number 3 i.e. var. >> delavayii) Strange and remiss of the authors to include flowers in the line >> drawings of M.surculosus and not for M.pumilus which makes it difficult to >> judge flower/calyx size. >> >> I remain somewhat uncertain/confused. One problem in interpreting FOI is >> that the authors, no matter how botanically able, may only have seen >> specimens from Chinese territory. The variation of species in NW may well >> be different/not able, so one has to be cautious here. >> >> Anyhow, I have started to inspect Mazus more closely. The fine photos of >> Ashwini (which show close-up the characteristics of the calyx) and others >> plus line drawings in FOC are much more useful than low resolution images of >> herbarium specimens. As always, "a picture paints a thousand words". >> Putting into words plant variation is often difficult. Keys should always >> be viewed with caution and not accepted without question. >> >> The currently accepted name is noted - along with various nomenclatural >> changes over time. Of course not all changes/revisions are accepted. >> >> I approach plant identification as detective work. This is another example >> and further evidence that we cannot rely solely upon Hooker's 'Flora of >> British India', which is well out-of-date (though he and other contributors >> did a remarkable job for the time). Every checklist and flora (no matter >> how reliable they are) become >> out-of-date as soon as they are published! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, 5 October 2016 13:37:50 UTC+1, JM Garg wrote: >> Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please. >> Some earlier relevant feedback: >> The genus Mazus is no longer in the Scrophulariaceae family but Phymaceae >> which includes >> >> The Kew Herbarium image: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/ >> getImage.do?imageBarcode= K001117588 >> <http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K001117588> >> >> Photos: https://www.google.co.uk/ search?q=%22Mazus+surculosus% >> 22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl >> <https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Mazus+surculosus%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl> >> >> There are two species of Mazus to consider. In 'Flora Simlensis' there is >> also M.rugosus - >> which Stewart and 'The Plant List' has this as M.japonicus. >> >> Flora Simlensis has M.japonicus as the common species at Shimla - he >> distinguishes >> it by the lack of runners and calyx lobed half-way down cf. shortly toothed >> in M.surculosus. >> >> For M.japonicus see: >> https://www.google.co.uk/ search?q=%22Mazus+japonicus% >> 22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl >> <https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Mazus+japonicus%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl> >> >> Your images show runners. I don't think that Flora Simlensis calyx >> characteristic holds true, >> so M.surculosus does seem the most likely. >> >> I have visited Manali several times. In the mid-1980s I led botanical tours >> to Lahoul, with Manali as the >> base, recording Mazus surculosus in the Deodar forest there but did not >> consider other species at the time. >> >> Best Wishes, >> Chris Chadwell >> >> >> Pl. also check comparative images & keys at Mazus >> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/p/phrymaceae/mazus> >> >> Mazus japonicus (Thunb.) Kuntze is now a synonym >> <http://www.theplantlist.org/1.1/about/#synonym> of Mazus pumilus (Burm.f.) >> Steenis <http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2507398> >> This specimen appears to be quite interesting.- from me >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] >> <applewebdata://433959A2-8E53-473F-85EB-509E836FE0F8>> >> Date: 25 September 2016 at 14:50 >> Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:252074] Mazus surculosus ABJUL01/12 >> To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups. com >> <applewebdata://433959A2-8E53-473F-85EB-509E836FE0F8>> >> Cc: Ushadi Micromini <[email protected] >> <applewebdata://433959A2-8E53-473F-85EB-509E836FE0F8>> >> >> >> Found a white Mazus on my walk today. Is it normal? To me it looks like M. >> surculosus only but I could be wrong. Please advise. >> >> Thanks. >> Ashwini >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > <_MG_7482_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7489_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7491_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7492_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7506_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7506_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7492_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7491_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7489_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7482_07Oct2016.jpg> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
