Thank you Mr Garg. I have been ruminating on that too. Hopefully we will have more expert advice soon.
Regards, Ashwini > On 17 Oct 2016, at 17:21, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > There is one more option as discussed in details of Alok ji's plant from > Himachal: Mazus goodeniifolius ? > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/p/phrymaceae/mazus/mazus-goodeniifolius> > > On 11 October 2016 at 08:13, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > Thanks Chris. I agree, this needs further consideration. > > Regards, > Ashwini > >> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:22, C CHADWELL <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> The additional observations and photos are helpful. >> >> I think this illustrates that this genus needs further study/checking. >> >> >> Best Wishes, >> >> >> Chris Chadwell >> >> >> 81 Parlaunt Road >> SLOUGH >> SL3 8BE >> UK >> >> www.shpa.org.uk <http://www.shpa.org.uk/> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> >> To: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]> >> Cc: efloraofindia <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>>; Anil Thakur >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> >> Sent: Friday, 7 October 2016, 11:21 >> Subject: Re: Mazus surculosus ? >> >> Dear Chris and Dr Thakur, >> Thank you both very much for your advice. My apologies for a late reply! I >> wanted to revisit the plant and collect more evidence before writing. I >> found the plant this morning and here are some observations with photographs; >> >> 1. Calyx lobes (8-9mm) are longer than the peduncle (5mm) >> 2. Calyx lobe edges are not toothed >> 3. The stem bearing flowers is hairy and runner-like >> 4. Flowers edge out the calyx slightly in corolla length. >> >> Please advise. >> >> Thanks. >> Ashwini >> >> >> <_MG_7482_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7489_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7491_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7492_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7506_07Oct2016.jpg> >> >>> On 7 Oct 2016, at 01:00, [email protected] >>> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Thanks Dr Thakur for drawing this to my/our attention. Mostly a question >>> of me too rapidly assuming a likely identification without checking >>> properly - especially with plants from what are 'low' elevations for me. >>> As soon as it gets to 2000m or less, my familiarity and knowledge rapidly >>> decreases! I know little of the Mazus genus, >>> largely limited to a casual look at specimens growing around Manali some 30 >>> years ago.... I now see that Stewart gave Mazus delavayii as a synonym for >>> M.japonicus (also M.rugosus). He found this common, ascending to 2100m in >>> rice fields and pond borders in N.Pakistan and Kashmir. >>> >>> A common mistake I have observed is for people to assume that 'Flowers of >>> the Himalaya' is a FULL flora. It is merely a guide to a fraction of the >>> total flora (often not much more than 1/10th described or illustrated), >>> concentrating on the commonest and showiest species. Too many users of >>> this book automatically "match" at a quick glance what they see or >>> photograph in the Himalaya with the single photo in that book. Often the >>> image does not show important characteristics which distinguish it from >>> similar species. This leads to numerous misidentifications. Many do not >>> bother to check the geographic distribution, altitudinal range or typical >>> habit for each species to see if the identification makes sense or should >>> be double or triple-checked! >>> >>> I am not a taxonomist but would think that characteristics of calyces are >>> stronger than the presence or not of runners. I am curious where the key >>> to Mazus species in H.P. comes from? >>> >>> I note from images taken in H.P. that some examples have much smaller >>> calyces in relation to the flowers - though these seem also to have the >>> calyx +/- cut to half way as well. So are these within Mazus surculosus >>> or M. pumilus var. delavayii? >>> >>> See: http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Suckering%20Mazus.html >>> <http://www.flowersofindia.net/catalog/slides/Suckering%20Mazus.html> (I >>> would not described the calyx as 'toothed') and >>> https://forwildlife.wordpress.com/wild-flowers-of-kalatope-khajjiar-sanctuary/wildflowers-in-june/ >>> >>> <https://forwildlife.wordpress.com/wild-flowers-of-kalatope-khajjiar-sanctuary/wildflowers-in-june/> >>> (I would say the calyx here is definitely not just toothed and approaches >>> the being lobed half way down). >>> >>> As for the line drawing in FOC for M.surculosus, this shows small calyces >>> which could be described as having toothed lobes), see: >>> http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=3540&flora_id=2 >>> <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=3540&flora_id=2> and >>> then there are the line drawings for M.pumilus see: >>> http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=4701&flora_id=2 >>> <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=4701&flora_id=2> (I >>> would say that the images taken by Ashwini certainly have a prominent >>> calyx, small flowers in relation to the calyx and do not fit number 3 i.e. >>> var. delavayii) Strange and remiss of the authors to include flowers in the >>> line drawings of M.surculosus and not for M.pumilus which makes it >>> difficult to judge flower/calyx size. >>> >>> I remain somewhat uncertain/confused. One problem in interpreting FOI is >>> that the authors, no matter how botanically able, may only have seen >>> specimens from Chinese territory. The variation of species in NW may well >>> be different/not able, so one has to be cautious here. >>> >>> Anyhow, I have started to inspect Mazus more closely. The fine photos of >>> Ashwini (which show close-up the characteristics of the calyx) and others >>> plus line drawings in FOC are much more useful than low resolution images >>> of herbarium specimens. As always, "a picture paints a thousand words". >>> Putting into words plant variation is often difficult. Keys should always >>> be viewed with caution and not accepted without question. >>> >>> The currently accepted name is noted - along with various nomenclatural >>> changes over time. Of course not all changes/revisions are accepted. >>> >>> I approach plant identification as detective work. This is another example >>> and further evidence that we cannot rely solely upon Hooker's 'Flora of >>> British India', which is well out-of-date (though he and other contributors >>> did a remarkable job for the time). Every checklist and flora (no matter >>> how reliable they are) become >>> out-of-date as soon as they are published! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, 5 October 2016 13:37:50 UTC+1, JM Garg wrote: >>> Forwarding again for Id confirmation or otherwise please. >>> Some earlier relevant feedback: >>> The genus Mazus is no longer in the Scrophulariaceae family but Phymaceae >>> which includes >>> >>> The Kew Herbarium image: http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/ >>> getImage.do?imageBarcode= K001117588 >>> <http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K001117588> >>> >>> Photos: https://www.google.co.uk/ search?q=%22Mazus+surculosus% >>> 22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl >>> <https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Mazus+surculosus%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl> >>> >>> There are two species of Mazus to consider. In 'Flora Simlensis' there is >>> also M.rugosus - >>> which Stewart and 'The Plant List' has this as M.japonicus. >>> >>> Flora Simlensis has M.japonicus as the common species at Shimla - he >>> distinguishes >>> it by the lack of runners and calyx lobed half-way down cf. shortly toothed >>> in M.surculosus. >>> >>> For M.japonicus see: >>> https://www.google.co.uk/ search?q=%22Mazus+japonicus% >>> 22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl >>> <https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=%22Mazus+japonicus%22&tbm=isch&gws_rd=ssl> >>> >>> Your images show runners. I don't think that Flora Simlensis calyx >>> characteristic holds true, >>> so M.surculosus does seem the most likely. >>> >>> I have visited Manali several times. In the mid-1980s I led botanical >>> tours to Lahoul, with Manali as the >>> base, recording Mazus surculosus in the Deodar forest there but did not >>> consider other species at the time. >>> >>> Best Wishes, >>> Chris Chadwell >>> >>> >>> Pl. also check comparative images & keys at Mazus >>> <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/p/phrymaceae/mazus> >>> >>> Mazus japonicus (Thunb.) Kuntze is now a synonym >>> <http://www.theplantlist.org/1.1/about/#synonym> of Mazus pumilus (Burm.f.) >>> Steenis <http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-2507398> >>> This specimen appears to be quite interesting.- from me >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected] <>> >>> Date: 25 September 2016 at 14:50 >>> Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:252074] Mazus surculosus ABJUL01/12 >>> To: efloraofindia <indian...@googlegroups. com <>> >>> Cc: Ushadi Micromini <[email protected] <>> >>> >>> >>> Found a white Mazus on my walk today. Is it normal? To me it looks like M. >>> surculosus only but I could be wrong. Please advise. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> Ashwini >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> <_MG_7482_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7489_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7491_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7492_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7506_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7506_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7492_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7491_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7489_07Oct2016.jpg><_MG_7482_07Oct2016.jpg> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a thousand > species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged > alphabetically & place-wise). 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