Dear Dr Rawat
Thanks for your comments and observations. It is such an asset to this group
to have a keen and knowledgeable observeractive in Uttarakhund - which I have
only visited briefly, on one occasion and have few references about. Sorry, I
am more familiar with Uttaranachal and Uttar Pradesh plus Kumaon (and Garwhal
from the British days). There are many species found in Nepal also in this
region indeed this is the NW limit of the distribution of more typically
'Eastern Himalayan' species and Dr Rawat has been able to located specimensnot
recorded from the region previously. The only way our knowledge of the region
will increase is with observant, active field-botanistsundertaking extensive
surveys. You are setting an example for others to follow.
I personally consider a vegetational division into 'Western' and 'Eastern'
Himalaya as too simplistic (though there will never be perfectseparations and
always some overlap). But I feel plant distribution-wise, better to have
'Western' (more accurately North-Western Himalaya) covering 'Kashmir' sensu
lato and Himchal Pradesh then 'Central Himalaya' covering Uttarakhund plus West
& CentralNepal, then 'Eastern Himalaya' covering Eastern Nepal, Sikkim &
Bhutan. I do not consider the mountains of SW China to form partof the
Himalaya proper. Polunin & Stainton within 'Flowers of the Himalaya' considered
that the Himalaya stretched from Nanga Parbat on the Indus eastwards to Namcha
Barwa on the bend of the Tsangpo in S-E Tibet for 2250km. Whereas their book
covered only the part of therange which lies within Nepal and the Indian
Western Himalaya, a distance of 1450km. The Nepal-Sikkim border was chosen as
the eastern boundary of their area with the India-Pakistan border as the
western boundary.
Do not know the flora of Arunachal sufficiently well to comment where this
should be placed.
I do not agree in the 'Sino-Japanese' Phytogeographic Region from Japan, Korea,
south west China westward through what was upper Assam, Tiawan, Bhutan, west
Nepa, Himachal Pradesh and Kashmir. The suggestion that there are many
Sino-Japanese elements found in the 'Himalayan' zone within Pakistan e.g. is
false....
Returning to the Delphinium photographed at Gunji. I do have some images
(cannot locate them at present) taken in the Upper KaliGandaki which from my
memory looked similar to these. Will be interesting to compare them.
I have a copy of 'Flora of Mustang, Nepal' Edited by Ohba, Ioakawa & Sharma
(2008) - which I have found far from exhaustive which gives many specimens of
D.kamaonense (plus a few of the similar D.caeruleum) from moist grassy slopes &
shrubberies. D.denudatum is not recorded from this region.
Strangely, D.denudatum is not included in 'Enumeration of the Flowering Plants
of Nepal' yet its distribution in 'Flowers of the Himalaya' is given into
Central Nepal (from 1500-2700m, so Gunji is beyond this altitude-wise) on
grassy banks & margins of fields. Strange, as the Enumeration formed the main
basis (along with the reference collections of pressed specimens in the
herbarium of the Natural History Museum, London) of Polunin & Stainton's work.
One can find images of D.kamaonense on the internet but these were taken in
China by Professor Boufford (of Harvard) and his colleagues. Whilst one can
have a high degree of confidence in the reliability of these, as accompanying
herbarium specimens would have been taken and subsequently 'determined' by
comparison with other reference pressed specimens (allowing examination
close-up of floral and foliage parts which the two photos from Gunji do not),
species which occur over a wide geographic range will inevitably vary (whether
or not such variation is recognised at varietal or subspecies level or when a
genus is revised sometimes as separate species) so must be examined with
caution.
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: D.S Rawat <[email protected]>
To: C CHADWELL <[email protected]>
Cc: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>; efloraofindia
<[email protected]>; Saroj Kasaju <[email protected]>; Nidhan
Singh <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 4 November 2016, 5:05
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:254590] Kailash-Mansarovar Yatra::Delphinium Sp
for ID NSJ-OCT 16/24
Both these species D. denudatum and D.kamaonense have finely dissected leaves,
though the images lack any leaves and stem part.
The possibility suggested by Chadwell Ji may be more closer as the altitude of
collection of this plant is mentioned around 3000m which is well within the
altitudinal distribution of D.kamaonense (3000-4600m in Kumaon, Uttarakhand).
Moreover, this species is reported from Pithoragarh District of Uttarakhand
(Pangtey et al. 1988. Contribution to the flora of Pithoragarh district (Kumaun
Himalaya) which is adjacent to Nepal.
D.denudatum has an overlapping range of altitudinal distribution (1800-4000m in
W.Himalaya) and known to occur in Pithoragarh district (Pangtey et al. 1988).
I have seen only D. denudatum in nature and it often occur at around 1000-2200m
throughout Uttarakhand.
The Kailash-Mansarovar track follows the Kali river valley mainly and I have
gone only up to Malipa (2300m); Gunji is far ahead of this place.
DSRawat Pantnagar
Dr D.S.RawatDepartment of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of
Agriculture & Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIAeflorapantnagar
displaying wild flora of Pantnagar
On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:53 PM, C CHADWELL <[email protected]>
wrote:
No, I do not consider the images taken near Guni camp are of D.denudatum.
We are at a considerable disadvantage not being able to properly see the stem
or basal leavesand with Delphiniums having a side view of the flowers to show
the spur better helps.
May I repeat a plea. Please take many more than 1-3 images of just the flowers
and post more. Foliage (bothupper & basal leaves, ideally showing lower
surface as well), habit, habitat are really important.Without such images one
is left trying to work out the picture of a jigsaw with lots of missing pieces.
It was the standard thing to just take one or two photos focussing on the
flowers only in the past (which is whatI did when using slides and the
requirement of changing lenses and a tripod) but modestly-priced
second-handcompact digital cameras are now readily available with wonderful
lenses for good close-ups and once into aroutine it does not take long to take
the requisite images. Such a shame if missing images make it impossible forus
to be sure which species a specimen belongs to or requires vastly more time and
effort on our part. Never easyto return to the site especially when trekking
high in the mountains.
Nevertheless, I currently think that the best bet would be D.kamaonense -
recorded from Kumaon to Central Nepal@ 3000-4300m. 'Flowers of the Himalaya'
say common on open slopes in Nepal, so quite possible from this location.
Perhaps Dr Rawat has come across D.kamaonense in Uttarakhand?
Any other suggestions?
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
To: D. S Rawat <[email protected]>
Cc: chrischadwell261@btinternet. com; efloraofindia
<indiantreepix@googlegroups. com>; Saroj Kasaju <[email protected]>; Nidhan
Singh <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, 3 November 2016, 13:32
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:254590] Kailash-Mansarovar Yatra::Delphinium Sp
for ID NSJ-OCT 16/24
Thanks, Rawat ji for your keen eye.
On 3 Nov 2016 2:15 pm, "D.S Rawat" <[email protected]> wrote:
Some leaves obscurely visible in background indicate possibility of D.denudatum.
eFI page on D.denudatum.
DSRawat Pantnagar
Dr D.S.RawatDepartment of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of
Agriculture & Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIAeflorapantnagar
displaying wild flora of Pantnagar
On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:14 AM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
Forwarding again for Id assistance please.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Narendra Joshi <[email protected]>
Date: 23 October 2016 at 15:21
Subject: [efloraofindia:254590] Kailash-Mansarovar Yatra::Delphinium Sp for ID
NSJ-OCT 16/24
To: indiantreepix <[email protected] m>
Dear Members,
Delphinium Sp for ID. Photo taken near Gunji camp (Uttarakhand) Aug 2016,
Altitude 10500 feet.
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With Regards,
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