Thanks, Chadwell ji and Rawat ji On 4 Nov 2016 5:29 pm, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear Dr Rawat > > Thanks for your comments and observations. It is such an asset to this > group to have a keen and knowledgeable observer > active in Uttarakhund - which I have only visited briefly, on one occasion > and have few references about. Sorry, I am more familiar with Uttaranachal > and Uttar Pradesh plus Kumaon (and Garwhal from the British days). There > are many species found in Nepal also in this region indeed this is the NW > limit of the distribution of more typically 'Eastern Himalayan' species and > Dr Rawat has been able to located specimens > not recorded from the region previously. The only way our knowledge of > the region will increase is with observant, active field-botanists > undertaking extensive surveys. You are setting an example for others to > follow. > > I personally consider a vegetational division into 'Western' and 'Eastern' > Himalaya as too simplistic (though there will never be perfect > separations and always some overlap). But I feel plant distribution-wise, > better to have 'Western' (more accurately North-Western > Himalaya) covering 'Kashmir' sensu lato and Himchal Pradesh then 'Central > Himalaya' covering Uttarakhund plus West & Central > Nepal, then 'Eastern Himalaya' covering Eastern Nepal, Sikkim & Bhutan. > I do not consider the mountains of SW China to form part > of the Himalaya proper. Polunin & Stainton within 'Flowers of the > Himalaya' considered that the Himalaya stretched from Nanga Parbat on the > Indus eastwards to Namcha Barwa on the bend of the Tsangpo in S-E Tibet for > 2250km. Whereas their book covered only the part of the > range which lies within Nepal and the Indian Western Himalaya, a distance > of 1450km. The Nepal-Sikkim border was chosen as the eastern boundary of > their area with the India-Pakistan border as the western boundary. > > Do not know the flora of Arunachal sufficiently well to comment where this > should be placed. > > I do not agree in the 'Sino-Japanese' Phytogeographic Region from Japan, > Korea, south west China westward through what was upper Assam, Tiawan, > Bhutan, west Nepa, Himachal Pradesh and Kashmir. The suggestion that there > are many Sino-Japanese elements found in the 'Himalayan' zone within > Pakistan e.g. is false.... > > Returning to the Delphinium photographed at Gunji. I do have some images > (cannot locate them at present) taken in the Upper Kali > Gandaki which from my memory looked similar to these. Will be interesting > to compare them. > > I have a copy of 'Flora of Mustang, Nepal' Edited by Ohba, Ioakawa & > Sharma (2008) - which I have found far from exhaustive which gives many > specimens of *D.kamaonense* (plus a few of the similar *D.caeruleum*) > from moist grassy slopes & shrubberies. *D.denudatum* is not recorded > from this region. > > Strangely, *D.denudatum* is not included in 'Enumeration of the Flowering > Plants of Nepal' yet its distribution in 'Flowers of the Himalaya' is given > into Central Nepal (from 1500-2700m, so Gunji is beyond this altitude-wise) > on grassy banks & margins of fields. Strange, as the Enumeration formed > the main basis (along with the reference collections of pressed specimens > in the herbarium of the Natural History Museum, London) of Polunin & > Stainton's work. > > One can find images of *D.kamaonense* on the internet but these were > taken in China by Professor Boufford (of Harvard) and his colleagues. > Whilst one can have a high degree of confidence in the reliability of > these, as accompanying herbarium specimens would have been taken > and subsequently 'determined' by comparison with other reference pressed > specimens (allowing examination close-up of floral and foliage parts which > the two photos from Gunji do not), species which occur over a wide > geographic range will inevitably vary (whether or not such variation is > recognised at varietal or subspecies level or when a genus is revised > sometimes as separate species) so must be examined with caution. > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* D.S Rawat <[email protected]> > *To:* C CHADWELL <[email protected]> > *Cc:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]>; efloraofindia < > [email protected]>; Saroj Kasaju <[email protected]>; > Nidhan Singh <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Friday, 4 November 2016, 5:05 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:254590] Kailash-Mansarovar > Yatra::Delphinium Sp for ID NSJ-OCT 16/24 > > Both these species *D. denudatum* and *D.kamaonense* have finely > dissected leaves, though the images lack any leaves and stem part. > The possibility suggested by Chadwell Ji may be more closer as the > altitude of collection of this plant is mentioned around 3000m which is > well within the altitudinal distribution of *D.kamaonense* (3000-4600m in > Kumaon, Uttarakhand). Moreover, this species is reported from Pithoragarh > District of Uttarakhand (Pangtey et al. 1988. Contribution to the flora of > Pithoragarh district (Kumaun Himalaya) which is adjacent to Nepal. > *D.denudatum* has an overlapping range of altitudinal distribution > (1800-4000m in W.Himalaya) and known to occur in Pithoragarh district > (Pangtey et al. 1988). > I have seen only *D. denudatum* in nature and it often occur at around > 1000-2200m throughout Uttarakhand. > The Kailash-Mansarovar track follows the Kali river valley mainly and I > have gone only up to Malipa (2300m); Gunji is far ahead of this place. > > DSRawat Pantnagar > > > Dr D.S.Rawat > Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & > Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA > *eflorapantnagar* <https://sites.google.com/site/eflorapantnagar/home> > displaying wild flora of Pantnagar > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:53 PM, C CHADWELL <chrischadwell261@btinternet. > com> wrote: > > No, I do not consider the images taken near Guni camp are of *D.denudatum* > . > > We are at a considerable disadvantage not being able to properly see the > stem or basal leaves > and with Delphiniums having a side view of the flowers to show the spur > better helps. > > *May I repeat a plea. Please take many more than 1-3 images of just the > flowers and post more. Foliage (both* > *upper & basal leaves, ideally showing lower surface as well), habit, > **habitat > are really important.* > *Without such images one is left trying to work out the picture of a > jigsaw with lots of missing pieces.* > > *It was the standard thing to just take one or two photos focussing on the > flowers only in the past (which is what* > *I did when using slides and the requirement of changing lenses and a > tripod) but modestly-priced second-hand* > *compact digital cameras are now readily available with wonderful lenses > for good close-ups and once into a* > *routine it does not take long to take the requisite images. Such a shame > if missing images make it impossible for* > *us to be sure which species a specimen belongs to or requires vastly more > time and effort on our part. Never easy* > *to return to the site especially when trekking high in the mountains.* > > Nevertheless, I currently think that the best bet would be *D.kamaonense* > - recorded from Kumaon to Central Nepal > @ 3000-4300m. 'Flowers of the Himalaya' say common on open slopes in > Nepal, so quite possible from this location. > > Perhaps Dr Rawat has come across *D.kamaonense* in Uttarakhand? > > Any other suggestions? > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *To:* D. S Rawat <[email protected]> > *Cc:* chrischadwell261@btinternet. com <[email protected]>; > efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com > <[email protected]>>; Saroj Kasaju <[email protected]>; > Nidhan Singh <[email protected]> > *Sent:* Thursday, 3 November 2016, 13:32 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:254590] Kailash-Mansarovar > Yatra::Delphinium Sp for ID NSJ-OCT 16/24 > > Thanks, Rawat ji for your keen eye. > > On 3 Nov 2016 2:15 pm, "D.S Rawat" <[email protected]> wrote: > > Some leaves obscurely visible in background indicate possibility of > D.denudatum. > eFI page on D.denudatum > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/species/m---z/r/ranunculaceae/delphinium/delphinium-denudatum> > . > > DSRawat Pantnagar > > Dr D.S.Rawat > Department of Biological Sciences, G.B. Pant University of Agriculture & > Technology Pantnagar-263 145 Uttarakhand, INDIA > *eflorapantnagar* <https://sites.google.com/site/eflorapantnagar/home> > displaying wild flora of Pantnagar > > On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 11:14 AM, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Forwarding again for Id assistance please. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *Narendra Joshi* <[email protected]> > Date: 23 October 2016 at 15:21 > Subject: [efloraofindia:254590] Kailash-Mansarovar Yatra::Delphinium Sp > for ID NSJ-OCT 16/24 > To: indiantreepix <[email protected] m > <[email protected]>> > > > Dear Members, > > Delphinium Sp for ID. Photo taken near Gunji camp (Uttarakhand) Aug 2016, > Altitude 10500 feet. > > -- > With Regards, > Narendra Joshi > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
