Dear Chris, The credit of this query goes to Mr Garg who tirelessly keeps checking new sources, discrepancies in older messages and posts queries on doubtful IDs for explanations. Many thanks are due to him.
Thank you very much for again taking the time to explain this. We had only kept this provisionally as E. densa. I will hopefully be able to look at the bracts and shed more light on the subject. Till then we could leave it as Elsholtzia species. Regards, Ashwini > On 18-Nov-2016, at 2:00 AM, C CHADWELL <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Dear Ashwini > > Good that you questioned this. Always be confident to do so. Nobody should > ever object to someone > checking or even challenging an identification (or full scientific > 'determination'). I must admit to rather > hastily deciding your plant was probably E.densa though I was not that sure - > partly a matter of attempting to > "fit it into existing species" recorded from your region. Progress has been > made - see the very end. > > Elsholtzia is not any easy genus. I am not that familiar with it yet. I > attach the pdf of the account > of the genus in Flora of China just in case you do not have it (see attached) > - which has more than 30 > species to consider (though thankfully a majority are not found in India)! > Bear in mind that Chinese botanists > have traditionally been what is known as "splitters" i.e. they are prone to > sub-divide into species what British > botanists (known as "clumpers") tend to treat as varieties or subspecies at > most. This is not absolute and a > rather sweeping generalisation. > > There are 10 species of Elsholtzia listed for Nepal. > > Stewart lists 5 perhaps 6 in his catalogue. > > I am in agreement with you that the plant you photographed does not remotely > match the images taken by Professor Boufford of > Harvard in SW China. I would generally consider one can have a high degree > of confidence in Boufford's work. > One must bear in mind that a species found all the way from the NW Himalaya > to China is likely to vary. I have > seen images of e.g. Saussurea (a difficult genus) from the same region that > Boufford photographed the Elsholtzia, > named as species found in Ladakh which do not match the examples I have seen > there. > > Looking properly at the images I named as E.densa from Ladakh the foliage > does not come close to that of your plant! > I was not paying proper attention. It was a mistake to provisionally name > your plant as E.densa. > > But what of your suggestion of E.pilosa, which I had originally dismissed - > this has the complication of not having been > recorded to the NW of what was Kumaon and according to FoC reddish flowers? > > So if your plant, which must be an Elsholtzia is not E.densa or E.pilosa nor > E.strobilfera, then what is it? It is > definitely not E.ciliata, E.fruticosa nor E.stachyodes. That eliminates all > the known possibilities. > > So let us return to your suggestion. I don't think your plants match > particularly well the image you gave links > to. But it is does seem close to a photo taken in Uttarakhand @ 2000m > thought to probably be E.pilosa, see: > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/yqC1ZqgiSH0. Not that > this is a guarantee your plant is this species. > > Your plant also comes close to: > http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000881687 - such a shame > the Kew herbarium images are of such low resolution. Not possible to zoom in > and compare floral parts. > > However, there is also a specimen scanned in at Edinburgh, which provided you > download as a full TIFF (this may take some time depending upon the speed of > your computer) which will allow you to zoom in: > http://elmer.rbge.org.uk/bgbase/vherb/bgbasevherb.php?cfg=bgbase/vherb/zoom.cfg&filename=E00275765.zip&queryRow=2. > This is a big help except your photos do not show detail of the bracts, which > can be seen on the dried specimen - albeit only the shape agreeing with the > description of E.pilosa from the line drawing you gave a link to - one cannot > see the ciliate margins. > > Unfortunately, one would still need to inspect the dried specimens with a > hand lens (involving a visit to a herbarium that has a specimen of E.pilosa > reliably named. You can, in addition to taking more close-up images of the > colony of your plant, using a hand lens (which I have recommended elsewhere) > to inspect the bracts on the living specimens. > > Always remember, species are traditionally identified on the basis of > characteristics which can be viewed (sometimes at x10 or > x20 or higher magnification) not necessarily what can be viewed from a photo. > > Well done for looking more closely than I did - even though I am still not > certain what it is. Let me know what you think? > > Have you ever visited a herbarium? > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > To: Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> > Cc: efloraofindia <[email protected]>; amit chauhan > <[email protected]>; [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2016, 8:52 > Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:255735] Lamiaceae for ID ABSEP2016/33 > > Thanks, Chadwell ji. > To me leaves do not match as per images of Elsholtzia densa at the following: > http://www.efloras.org/object_ page.aspx?object_id=88813& flora_id=800 > http://www.efloras.org/object_ page.aspx?object_id=88812& flora_id=800 > http://www.efloras.org/object_ page.aspx?object_id=88814& flora_id=800 > http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=88817&flora_id=800 > http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=88818&flora_id=800 > http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=106046&flora_id=800 > http://angio.bergianska.se/Bilder/asterids/Plantaginales/Lamiaceae/Elsholtzia/ > I still feel it is closer to Elsholtzia pilosa as per > http://www.virboga.de/Elsholtzia_pilosa.htm > http://www.eflora.cn/foc/illast/Elsholtzia%20pilosa.jpg > > > On 8 November 2016 at 07:42, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear Mr Garg, > > My apologies for not replying earlier. I have been very busy with my work and > could not attend to my emails. > > Thank you Chris for the explanation. I will keep it as Elsholtzia sp. (likely > E. densa) for the moment. > > Since many of the species from my area are not easy to identify, I will be > happy to collect as much evidence (photos) as possible. If we could come up > with a short guide on what to photograph and what information to collect for > a given species to aid identification, it would greatly help the non-experts > in the field. > > Many thanks and regards, > Ashwini > > >> On 5 Nov 2016, at 09:55, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> Thanks, Chadwell ji. >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: chrischadwell261@btinternet. com <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com> >> Date: 5 November 2016 at 06:41 >> Subject: [efloraofindia:255735] Re: Lamiaceae for ID ABSEP2016/33 >> To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com> >> >> >> This is not E,strobilifera. In this species the spike is one-sided with >> prominent bracts. >> >> It is not E.pilosa either. That species is "pilose" as the name suggests is >> covered with long soft hairs. It is only known from Kumaon to Bhutan (and >> on to China). This is not an easy genus with a fair amount of confusion. >> >> Appears to be Elsholtzia densa to me; the flower spikes are dense +/- even. >> Interestingly, this species is not in 'Flora Simlensis'. Stewart found it >> to be common in fields and hedgerows @ 2400-4200m in Kashmir. It is found >> in Ladakh. I recently named an image of this species posted from Ladakh and >> ones sent to me from Gansu in China (where it is utilised medicinally). It >> is also found in Lahoul. >> >> I am not convinced about the information and records for this genus in >> 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti'. >> >> >> On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 4:50:54 PM UTC+1, ashwini wrote: >> The small spikes are reminiscent of Elsholtzia. Please help identify this. >> >> Mcleodganj-Triund, HP >> 2500m >> 10-11 September 2016 >> >> Thanks. >> Ashwini >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "efloraofindia" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout. >> >> >> >> -- >> With regards, >> J.M.Garg >> 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' >> Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. >> For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, >> please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- >> around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website >> (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). >> The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & >> eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged >> alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative >> Commons license attached with each image. >> Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of >> India'. > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group (largest in the world- > around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia website > (with a species database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource of more than a thousand species & > eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged > alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as per Creative > Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of India'. > > > <elsholtzia of China.pdf> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
