Thanks, Chadwell ji On 18 Nov 2016 2:04 am, "C CHADWELL" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear Ashwini > > Good that you questioned this. Always be confident to do so. Nobody > should ever object to someone > checking or even challenging an identification (or full scientific > 'determination'). I must admit to rather > hastily deciding your plant was probably E.densa though I was not that > sure - partly a matter of attempting to > "fit it into existing species" recorded from your region. *Progress has > been made - see the very end.* > > Elsholtzia is not any easy genus. I am not that familiar with it yet. I > attach the pdf of the account > of the genus in Flora of China just in case you do not have it (see > attached) - which has more than 30 > species to consider (though thankfully a majority are not found in > India)! Bear in mind that Chinese botanists > have traditionally been what is known as "splitters" i.e. they are prone > to sub-divide into species what British > botanists (known as "clumpers") tend to treat as varieties or subspecies > at most. This is not absolute and a > rather sweeping generalisation. > > There are 10 species of Elsholtzia listed for Nepal. > > Stewart lists 5 perhaps 6 in his catalogue. > > I am in agreement with you that the plant you photographed does not > *remotely* match the images taken by Professor Boufford of > Harvard in SW China. I would generally consider one can have a high > degree of confidence in Boufford's work. > One must bear in mind that a species found all the way from the NW > Himalaya to China is likely to vary. I have > seen images of e.g. Saussurea (a difficult genus) from the same region > that Boufford photographed the Elsholtzia, > named as species found in Ladakh which do not match the examples I have > seen there. > > Looking properly at the images I named as E.densa from Ladakh the foliage > does not come close to that of your plant! > I was not paying proper attention. It was a mistake to provisionally name > your plant as E.densa. > > But what of your suggestion of E.pilosa, which I had originally > dismissed - this has the complication of not having been > recorded to the NW of what was Kumaon and according to FoC reddish flowers? > > *So if your plant, which must be an Elsholtzia is not E.densa or E.pilosa > nor E.strobilfera, then what is it? It is* > *definitely not E.ciliata, E.fruticosa nor E.stachyodes. That eliminates > all the known possibilities.* > > *So let us return to your suggestion. I don't think your plants match > particularly well the image you gave links* > *to. But it is does seem close to a photo taken in Uttarakhand @ 2000m > thought to probably be E.pilosa, see: > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/yqC1ZqgiSH0 > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/yqC1ZqgiSH0>. Not > that this is a guarantee your plant is this species.* > > *Your plant also comes close to: > http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000881687 > <http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000881687> - such a > shame* > *the Kew herbarium images are of such low resolution. Not possible to > zoom in and compare floral parts.* > > *However, there is also a specimen scanned in at Edinburgh, which provided > you download as a full TIFF (this may take some time depending upon the > speed of your computer) which will allow you to zoom in: > http://elmer.rbge.org.uk/bgbase/vherb/bgbasevherb.php?cfg=bgbase/vherb/zoom.cfg&filename=E00275765.zip&queryRow=2 > <http://elmer.rbge.org.uk/bgbase/vherb/bgbasevherb.php?cfg=bgbase/vherb/zoom.cfg&filename=E00275765.zip&queryRow=2>.* > *This is a big help except your photos do not show detail of the bracts, > which can be seen on the dried specimen - albeit only the shape agreeing > with the description of E.pilosa from the line drawing you gave a link to - > one cannot see the ciliate margins.* > > *Unfortunately, one would still need to inspect the dried specimens with a > hand lens (involving a visit to a herbarium that has a specimen of E.pilosa > reliably named. You can, in addition to taking more close-up images of the > colony of your plant, using a hand lens (which I have recommended > elsewhere) to inspect the bracts on the living specimens.* > > *Always remember, species are traditionally identified on the basis of > characteristics which can be viewed (sometimes at x10 or* > *x20 or higher magnification) not necessarily what can be viewed from a > photo.* > > *Well done for looking more closely than I did - even though I am still > not certain what it is. Let me know what you think?* > > *Have you ever visited a herbarium? * > > > > > > > > > Best Wishes, > > > Chris Chadwell > > > 81 Parlaunt Road > SLOUGH > SL3 8BE > UK > > www.shpa.org.uk > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* J.M. Garg <[email protected]> > *To:* Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> > *Cc:* efloraofindia <[email protected]>; amit chauhan < > [email protected]>; [email protected] > *Sent:* Thursday, 17 November 2016, 8:52 > *Subject:* Re: [efloraofindia:255735] Lamiaceae for ID ABSEP2016/33 > > Thanks, Chadwell ji. > To me leaves do not match as per images of Elsholtzia densa at the > following: > http://www.efloras.org/object_ page.aspx?object_id=88813& flora_id=800 > <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=88813&flora_id=800> > http://www.efloras.org/object_ page.aspx?object_id=88812& flora_id=800 > <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=88812&flora_id=800> > http://www.efloras.org/object_ page.aspx?object_id=88814& flora_id=800 > <http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=88814&flora_id=800> > http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=88817&flora_id=800 > http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=88818&flora_id=800 > http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=106046&flora_id=800 > http://angio.bergianska.se/Bilder/asterids/Plantaginales/ > Lamiaceae/Elsholtzia/ > I still feel it is closer to Elsholtzia pilosa as per > http://www.virboga.de/Elsholtzia_pilosa.htm > http://www.eflora.cn/foc/illast/Elsholtzia%20pilosa.jpg > > > On 8 November 2016 at 07:42, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Dear Mr Garg, > > My apologies for not replying earlier. I have been very busy with my work > and could not attend to my emails. > > Thank you Chris for the explanation. I will keep it as *Elsholtzia* sp. > (likely *E. densa*) for the moment. > > Since many of the species from my area are not easy to identify, I will be > happy to collect as much evidence (photos) as possible. If we could come up > with a short guide on what to photograph and what information to collect > for a given species to aid identification, it would greatly help the > non-experts in the field. > > Many thanks and regards, > Ashwini > > > On 5 Nov 2016, at 09:55, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote: > > Thanks, Chadwell ji. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: *chrischadwell261@btinternet. com <[email protected]>* > <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com <[email protected]>> > Date: 5 November 2016 at 06:41 > Subject: [efloraofindia:255735] Re: Lamiaceae for ID ABSEP2016/33 > To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com > <[email protected]>> > > > This is not *E,strobilifera*. In this species the spike is one-sided > with prominent bracts. > > It is not E.pilosa either. That species is "pilose" as the name suggests > is covered with long soft hairs. It is only known from Kumaon to Bhutan > (and on to China). This is not an easy genus with a fair amount of > confusion. > > Appears to be Elsholtzia densa to me; the flower spikes are dense +/- > even. Interestingly, this species is not in 'Flora Simlensis'. Stewart > found it to be common in fields and hedgerows @ 2400-4200m in Kashmir. It > is found in Ladakh. I recently named an image of this species posted from > Ladakh and ones sent to me from Gansu in China (where it is utilised > medicinally). It is also found in Lahoul. > > I am not convinced about the information and records for this genus in > 'Flora of Lahaul-Spiti'. > > > On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 4:50:54 PM UTC+1, ashwini wrote: > > The small spikes are reminiscent of *Elsholtzia*. Please help identify > this. > > Mcleodganj-Triund, HP > 2500m > 10-11 September 2016 > > Thanks. > Ashwini > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "efloraofindia" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to indiantreepix+unsubscribe@goog legroups.com > <[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] . > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/indiantreepix > <https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > > > > -- > With regards, > J.M.Garg > 'Creating awareness of Indian Flora & Fauna' > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Jmgarg1> > Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow Awards 2014 for efloraofindia > <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/award-for-efloraofindia>. > For identification, learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, > please visit/ join our Efloraofindia Google e-group > <https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/indiantreepix> (largest in the > world- around 2700 members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) or Efloraofindia > website <https://sites.google.com/site/efloraofindia/> (with a species > database of more than 11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). > The whole world uses my Image Resource > <http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:J.M.Garg> of more than a > thousand species & eight thousand images of Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. > (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can also use them for free as > per Creative Commons license attached with each image. > Also author of 'A Photoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of > India'. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "efloraofindia" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send an email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/indiantreepix. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
