Thanks for clarifying this. Yes it is impressive the professional efforts
heputs in and lengths he goes to check nomenclature and latest taxonomic
treatments -something I am not always good at just as proof-reading is not my
forte!
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: C CHADWELL <[email protected]>
Cc: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>; efloraofindia
<[email protected]>; amit chauhan <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, 18 November 2016, 2:13
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:255735] Lamiaceae for ID ABSEP2016/33
Dear Chris,The credit of this query goes to Mr Garg who tirelessly keeps
checking new sources, discrepancies in older messages and posts queries on
doubtful IDs for explanations. Many thanks are due to him.
Thank you very much for again taking the time to explain this. We had only kept
this provisionally as E. densa. I will hopefully be able to look at the bracts
and shed more light on the subject.
Till then we could leave it as Elsholtzia species.
Regards,Ashwini
On 18-Nov-2016, at 2:00 AM, C CHADWELL <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Ashwini
Good that you questioned this. Always be confident to do so. Nobody should
ever object to someonechecking or even challenging an identification (or full
scientific 'determination'). I must admit to ratherhastily deciding your plant
was probably E.densa though I was not that sure - partly a matter of attempting
to"fit it into existing species" recorded from your region. Progress has been
made - see the very end.
Elsholtzia is not any easy genus. I am not that familiar with it yet. I
attach the pdf of the accountof the genus in Flora of China just in case you do
not have it (see attached) - which has more than 30species to consider (though
thankfully a majority are not found in India)! Bear in mind that Chinese
botanistshave traditionally been what is known as "splitters" i.e. they are
prone to sub-divide into species what British botanists (known as "clumpers")
tend to treat as varieties or subspecies at most. This is not absolute and
arather sweeping generalisation.
There are 10 species of Elsholtzia listed for Nepal.
Stewart lists 5 perhaps 6 in his catalogue.
I am in agreement with you that the plant you photographed does not remotely
match the images taken by Professor Boufford ofHarvard in SW China. I would
generally consider one can have a high degree of confidence in Boufford's
work.One must bear in mind that a species found all the way from the NW
Himalaya to China is likely to vary. I haveseen images of e.g. Saussurea (a
difficult genus) from the same region that Boufford photographed the
Elsholtzia,named as species found in Ladakh which do not match the examples I
have seen there.
Looking properly at the images I named as E.densa from Ladakh the foliage does
not come close to that of your plant!I was not paying proper attention. It was
a mistake to provisionally name your plant as E.densa.
But what of your suggestion of E.pilosa, which I had originally dismissed -
this has the complication of not having beenrecorded to the NW of what was
Kumaon and according to FoC reddish flowers?
So if your plant, which must be an Elsholtzia is not E.densa or E.pilosa nor
E.strobilfera, then what is it? It isdefinitely not E.ciliata, E.fruticosa nor
E.stachyodes. That eliminates all the known possibilities.
So let us return to your suggestion. I don't think your plants match
particularly well the image you gave linksto. But it is does seem close to a
photo taken in Uttarakhand @ 2000m thought to probably be E.pilosa, see:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/indiantreepix/yqC1ZqgiSH0. Not that
this is a guarantee your plant is this species.
Your plant also comes close to:
http://apps.kew.org/herbcat/getImage.do?imageBarcode=K000881687 - such a
shamethe Kew herbarium images are of such low resolution. Not possible to zoom
in and compare floral parts.
However, there is also a specimen scanned in at Edinburgh, which provided you
download as a full TIFF (this may take some time depending upon the speed of
your computer) which will allow you to zoom in:
http://elmer.rbge.org.uk/bgbase/vherb/bgbasevherb.php?cfg=bgbase/vherb/zoom.cfg&filename=E00275765.zip&queryRow=2.This
is a big help except your photos do not show detail of the bracts, which can
be seen on the dried specimen - albeit only the shape agreeing with the
description of E.pilosa from the line drawing you gave a link to - one cannot
see the ciliate margins.
Unfortunately, one would still need to inspect the dried specimens with a hand
lens (involving a visit to a herbarium that has a specimen of E.pilosa reliably
named. You can, in addition to taking more close-up images of the colony of
your plant, using a hand lens (which I have recommended elsewhere) to inspect
the bracts on the living specimens.
Always remember, species are traditionally identified on the basis of
characteristics which can be viewed (sometimes at x10 orx20 or higher
magnification) not necessarily what can be viewed from a photo.
Well done for looking more closely than I did - even though I am still not
certain what it is. Let me know what you think?
Have you ever visited a herbarium?
Best Wishes,
Chris Chadwell
81 Parlaunt Road
SLOUGH
SL3 8BE
UK
www.shpa.org.uk
From: J.M. Garg <[email protected]>
To: Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]>
Cc: efloraofindia <[email protected]>; amit chauhan
<[email protected]>; [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2016, 8:52
Subject: Re: [efloraofindia:255735] Lamiaceae for ID ABSEP2016/33
Thanks, Chadwell ji.To me leaves do not match as per images of Elsholtzia densa
at the following:http://www.efloras.org/object_ page.aspx?object_id=88813&
flora_id=800http://www.efloras.org/object_ page.aspx?object_id=88812&
flora_id=800http://www.efloras.org/object_ page.aspx?object_id=88814&
flora_id=800http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=88817&flora_id=800http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=88818&flora_id=800http://www.efloras.org/object_page.aspx?object_id=106046&flora_id=800http://angio.bergianska.se/Bilder/asterids/Plantaginales/Lamiaceae/Elsholtzia/
I still feel it is closer to Elsholtzia pilosa as per
http://www.virboga.de/Elsholtzia_pilosa.htmhttp://www.eflora.cn/foc/illast/Elsholtzia%20pilosa.jpg
On 8 November 2016 at 07:42, Ashwini Bhatia <[email protected]> wrote:
Dear Mr Garg,
My apologies for not replying earlier. I have been very busy with my work and
could not attend to my emails.
Thank you Chris for the explanation. I will keep it as Elsholtzia sp. (likely
E. densa) for the moment.
Since many of the species from my area are not easy to identify, I will be
happy to collect as much evidence (photos) as possible. If we could come up
with a short guide on what to photograph and what information to collect for a
given species to aid identification, it would greatly help the non-experts in
the field.
Many thanks and regards,Ashwini
On 5 Nov 2016, at 09:55, J.M. Garg <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks, Chadwell ji.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: chrischadwell261@btinternet. com <chrischadwell261@btinternet. com>
Date: 5 November 2016 at 06:41
Subject: [efloraofindia:255735] Re: Lamiaceae for ID ABSEP2016/33
To: efloraofindia <indiantreepix@googlegroups. com>
This is not E,strobilifera. In this species the spike is one-sided with
prominent bracts.
It is not E.pilosa either. That species is "pilose" as the name suggests is
covered with long soft hairs. It is only known from Kumaon to Bhutan (and on
to China). This is not an easy genus with a fair amount of confusion.
Appears to be Elsholtzia densa to me; the flower spikes are dense +/- even.
Interestingly, this species is not in 'Flora Simlensis'. Stewart found it to
be common in fields and hedgerows @ 2400-4200m in Kashmir. It is found in
Ladakh. I recently named an image of this species posted from Ladakh and ones
sent to me from Gansu in China (where it is utilised medicinally). It is also
found in Lahoul.
I am not convinced about the information and records for this genus in 'Flora
of Lahaul-Spiti'.
On Monday, September 12, 2016 at 4:50:54 PM UTC+1, ashwini wrote:
The small spikes are reminiscent of Elsholtzia. Please help identify this.
Mcleodganj-Triund, HP2500m10-11 September 2016
Thanks.Ashwini
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With regards,
J.M.Garg'Creating awareness of IndianFlora & Fauna'Winner of Wipro-NFS Sparrow
Awards 2014 for efloraofindia.
For identification,learning, discussion & documentation of Indian Flora, please
visit/ joinour EfloraofindiaGoogle e-group (largestin the world- around 2700
members & 2,40,000 messages on 31.3.16) orEfloraofindia website (with a species
database of more than11,000 species & 2,20,000 images). The whole world uses my
Image Resource of more than a thousand species & eight thousand images of
Birds, Butterflies, Plants etc. (arranged alphabetically & place-wise). You can
also use them for free as per Creative Commons license attached with each
image.Also author of 'APhotoguide to the Birds of Kolkata & Common Birds of
India'.
<elsholtzia of China.pdf>
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