Yes, but look at the title of the second article "Cucumber (C. sativus) belongs in an Asian/Australian clade far from melon (C. melo)". If they are calling this far, then how maderaspatana is close? This is where I would prefer some mol. systematicists to give inputs. I believe at many times, gene sequences cant be of help in describing the link between two taxa because its afterall a very small segment of the whole gene. You always need a field botanists and hardcore taxonomists to identify you plant.
After all 99% of human gene match with chimpanzee, still we are so different. Regards Pankaj On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 1:09 AM, Gurcharan Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > Pankaj ji > Thanks for important papers. Well if we are to infer from the tree, Mukia > maderaspatana nests well within Cucumis. In fact it is much more closely > related to C. sativus than C. melo is to C. sativus. > thanks for inputs. > -- > Dr. Gurcharan Singh > Retired Associate Professor > SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 > Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. > Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 > http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ > > On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> By the way I rechecked, Cucumis 002 which i sent was published on April >> 2007!! >> >> Renner, S.S., H. Schaefer and A. Kocyan. 2007. Phylogenetics of >> Cucumis (Cucurbitaceae): Cucumber (C. sativus) belongs in an >> Asian/Australian clade far from melon (C. melo). BMC Evolutionary >> Biology, 7: 58 - 69. >> >> Pankaj >> >> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 12:02 AM, Dinesh Valke <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > Again many thanks: Pankaj, Gurcharan ji and Vijayasankar ji. >> > Regards. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:59 PM, Pankaj Kumar <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Ok Vijay, as you say!! >> >> Regards >> >> Pankaj >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:52 PM, Vijayasankar >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> > Very interesting discussion. >> >> > Change of names in this group has become constant! >> >> > But, I think Schaefer has finally come up with a solution for the >> >> > confusion >> >> > in the nomenclature by merging the closely allied 'genera', though he >> >> > has >> >> > added few more new names in addition to the existing list. But, GRIN >> >> > seem to >> >> > have updated the nomenclature based on some ref. (on 26 June >> >> > 2007) before >> >> > publication of Schaefer's paper (published on 4 July 2007). >> >> > >> >> > Anyway, we should be aware that Cucumis ritchei is not our Cucumella >> >> > ritchei >> >> > which is now Cucumis indicus!! >> >> > And from now we will call Mukia maderaspata as Cucumis >> >> > maderaspatanus. >> >> > Thanks Pankaj for the references. >> >> > >> >> > Regards >> >> > >> >> > Vijayasankar >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 12:00 PM, Dinesh Valke >> >> > <[email protected]> >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Our last mails overlapped ... !!! >> >> >> Many thanks once again for digging deeper !!! >> >> >> >> >> >> Hopefully friends pursuing Mukia and Cucumis will resolve this >> >> >> confusion. >> >> >> >> >> >> Regards. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:19 PM, Pankaj Kumar >> >> >> <[email protected]> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>> No sir, its not because of popularity in this case. On the basis of >> >> >>> popularity a wrong name can be accepted like they do for >> >> >>> Orchidaceae. >> >> >>> Like Orchidaceae described my Jussieu is accepted though the one >> >> >>> described by Adanson was older. Former name (Orchidaceae Juss.) was >> >> >>> conserved. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Here the main reason given is the genetic makeup of the taxa which >> >> >>> is >> >> >>> given in the three references I provided in my last mail. On the >> >> >>> basis >> >> >>> of popularity it could have been done, but merging 5 different >> >> >>> genera >> >> >>> into one is a big deal!! >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Regards >> >> >>> Pankaj >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 11:10 PM, Dinesh Valke >> >> >>> <[email protected]> >> >> >>> wrote: >> >> >>> > Many thanks Pankaj for your clarifications ... yet hoping we get >> >> >>> > to >> >> >>> > know of >> >> >>> > facts. >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > Mukia maderaspatana is a very popular name ... it is found in >> >> >>> > many >> >> >>> > literature (old non-botanic)... on the contrary, Cucumis >> >> >>> > maderaspatanus >> >> >>> > is >> >> >>> > lesser found. >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > From the two references, GRIN and IPNI, whatever status they show >> >> >>> > of >> >> >>> > this >> >> >>> > species currently ... thoughts coming to my mind: ... for some >> >> >>> > reason, >> >> >>> > Cucumis maderaspatanus gains currency somewhere in the recent >> >> >>> > past >> >> >>> > (justifying GRIN's effort of stating it) ... for some reason, the >> >> >>> > old >> >> >>> > popular name regains its status and becomes the accepted name (as >> >> >>> > per >> >> >>> > your >> >> >>> > clarifications). >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > Regards. >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 10:32 PM, Gurcharan Singh >> >> >>> > <[email protected]> >> >> >>> > wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> Thanks a lot for the information, Pankaj ji >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> -- >> >> >>> >> Dr. Gurcharan Singh >> >> >>> >> Retired Associate Professor >> >> >>> >> SGTB Khalsa College, University of Delhi, Delhi-110007 >> >> >>> >> Res: 932 Anand Kunj, Vikas Puri, New Delhi-110018. >> >> >>> >> Phone: 011-25518297 Mob: 9810359089 >> >> >>> >> http://people.du.ac.in/~singhg45/ >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> On Wed, Nov 10, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Pankaj Kumar >> >> >>> >> <[email protected]> >> >> >>> >> wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> There was a project undertaken by Natural History Museum >> >> >>> >>> London, >> >> >>> >>> called, The Linnaean Plant Name Typification Project. Headed by >> >> >>> >>> Dr. >> >> >>> >>> Charles Jarvis a very senior taxonomist, who happens to be on >> >> >>> >>> my >> >> >>> >>> friend list. They came out with a book called, "Order Out of >> >> >>> >>> Chaos: >> >> >>> >>> Linnaean Plant Names and Their Types". In this he provided >> >> >>> >>> information >> >> >>> >>> on the status of Type Specimens of Linnaeus and of those he >> >> >>> >>> referred >> >> >>> >>> and the species what he had described. The books gives the >> >> >>> >>> details >> >> >>> >>> of >> >> >>> >>> type and lectotypes of all the taxa described by Linnaeus along >> >> >>> >>> with >> >> >>> >>> their currently accepted names. According to the book, the >> >> >>> >>> currently >> >> >>> >>> accepted name is Mukia maderaspatana (L.) M.Roem.. The book was >> >> >>> >>> released in 2007 and I am yet to have a copy of it :(. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> IPNI does provide the synonyms as well as basionyms and in this >> >> >>> >>> particular taxa, it claims Cucumis as basionym. If you check >> >> >>> >>> the >> >> >>> >>> record history of the taxa then there are editings done by >> >> >>> >>> "BARKER". >> >> >>> >>> I >> >> >>> >>> know Dr. Tina Barker at IPNI personally, so I may ask her, but >> >> >>> >>> as >> >> >>> >>> the >> >> >>> >>> site claims, most probably, her answer will be same. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Even JSTOR accepts Mukia as accepted name. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> http://plants.jstor.org/flora/ftea001827 (I am not sure if you >> >> >>> >>> can >> >> >>> >>> open this link, I can because I am a member of it). >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Note that GRIN database claims that it was last updated in >> >> >>> >>> 2008, >> >> >>> >>> but >> >> >>> >>> updation there may not mean updation in the synonymy but also >> >> >>> >>> any >> >> >>> >>> other information on the webpage of particular species, that >> >> >>> >>> may >> >> >>> >>> include other references. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> IPNI may be wrong, and so can be GRIN, but I trust Dr. Charles >> >> >>> >>> Jarvis >> >> >>> >>> and >> >> >>> >>> JSTOR. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> I am not forcing my point here. I am giving my reference and >> >> >>> >>> you >> >> >>> >>> are >> >> >>> >>> giving yours. We just need to check who is correct. Both have >> >> >>> >>> our >> >> >>> >>> references to support our views. >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Regards >> >> >>> >>> Pankaj >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> -- >> >> >>> >>> *********************************************** >> >> >>> >>> "TAXONOMISTS GETTING EXTINCT AND SPECIES DATA DEFICIENT !!" >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae) >> >> >>> >>> Research Associate >> >> >>> >>> Greater Kailash Sacred Landscape Project >> >> >>> >>> Department of Habitat Ecology >> >> >>> >>> Wildlife Institute of India >> >> >>> >>> Post Box # 18 >> >> >>> >>> Dehradun - 248001, India >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> -- >> >> >>> *********************************************** >> >> >>> "TAXONOMISTS GETTING EXTINCT AND SPECIES DATA DEFICIENT !!" >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae) >> >> >>> Research Associate >> >> >>> Greater Kailash Sacred Landscape Project >> >> >>> Department of Habitat Ecology >> >> >>> Wildlife Institute of India >> >> >>> Post Box # 18 >> >> >>> Dehradun - 248001, India >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> *********************************************** >> >> "TAXONOMISTS GETTING EXTINCT AND SPECIES DATA DEFICIENT !!" >> >> >> >> >> >> Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae) >> >> Research Associate >> >> Greater Kailash Sacred Landscape Project >> >> Department of Habitat Ecology >> >> Wildlife Institute of India >> >> Post Box # 18 >> >> Dehradun - 248001, India >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> *********************************************** >> "TAXONOMISTS GETTING EXTINCT AND SPECIES DATA DEFICIENT !!" >> >> >> Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae) >> Research Associate >> Greater Kailash Sacred Landscape Project >> Department of Habitat Ecology >> Wildlife Institute of India >> Post Box # 18 >> Dehradun - 248001, India > > > > > -- *********************************************** "TAXONOMISTS GETTING EXTINCT AND SPECIES DATA DEFICIENT !!" Pankaj Kumar Ph.D. (Orchidaceae) Research Associate Greater Kailash Sacred Landscape Project Department of Habitat Ecology Wildlife Institute of India Post Box # 18 Dehradun - 248001, India
