Allan and the List
Good stuff!
At 12:32 AM 19/12/03 +1100, aleggett wrote:
Greetings Andrew. Just a quick response.
- At 10:54 PM 16/12/03 +1100, aleggett wrote:
- <snip>
- It is time we stopped being nervous Nellies and started to teach our faith
- in language that makes sense. Even growing up in the 50's and 60's, by the
- time I was 12 or 13 there was a tension going on within me as to what I was
- being taught in Sunday School or RE at school and what my brain was telling
- me made sense.
- Likewise. I stopped calling myself a Christian for my years 11 and 12 (we called them 5th and 6th year) at High School rather than have my religion identified with that of the local ISCF. My faith in these years was between God and me, basically.
- So what am I saying. Well frankly, I can't be bothered getting into
- arguments with people who take the literal approach to scripture and use it
- to defend their own prejudices which frankly is what is going on in the
- current debate.
- I'd agree that some people are doing this. But I don't think you're being fair to tar us all with this brush.
- Sorry if it sounds like I was talking about you. I have not found this to be the case with members of this list. I would associate it with those who are trying to bulldoze the UCA into adopting their own 'conservative evangelical' stance on scripture.
OK. I'm glad we got that cleared up.
- The God I know and teach is as much a part of the reality of
- GLBT people as this God is part of the reality of straights or whatever.
Agreed.
If one part of the church wants to sit in their fortress and try and defend what quite frankly I believe is nonsense, then let them do it. In the mean time, lets get on with developing a theology (or spirituality) that makes sense in today's world and just as importantly, lets have the courage to confidently sell that spirituality in the marketplace. In other words, lets talk with confidence about the God we have found in Jesus. This man in whom I believe we have seen the fullness of God in our humanity in the way he lived and loved and whose spirit continues to live in all who live in love. This for me makes sense. This is a message I can share with confidence. I'd like to join you in this endeavour. But I don't think we need to throw away the Bible to do it, and you haven't said we should. We just need to understand how it fits in.
My impression of those who would take the Bible "literally" is that they have no idea what the word means, and that they tend to like translations such as the NIV, which isn't actually very literal at all.
So, how does the Bible fit in, in your opinion? Let me tell you how it fits in to my life. I am under its authority. If I know what it's telling me to do, and I don't do it, then I'm disobeying God. I don't think its that simple. The only real authority the Bible has is the authority you bestow upon it yourself.
Hmmmm. Well, yes, if you include indirect authority. The Church has IMO affirmed the authority of the Bible, as has the Holy Spirit. But there's an element of circularity in all this, or "pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps".
I think we all *do* have faith in something, that is we all accept some dogmas. Some people are aware of their dogmas, others are not interested in them, and that's fine, but still others think they have none, and that's self-deception. As a logician, I try to identify my dogmas, or presuppositions. There's a sense in which we can't ever justify them, but we can identify them, and I think it's good to.
But I stick to my simple statement. If I know what the Bible is telling me to do, and I don't do it, then I'm disobeying God. I can't see how I can regard the Bible as any sort of measure of doctrine and action, as the Basis of Union commits the UCA to doing, otherwise.
- If you don't follow some instruction that is in the Bible such as stoning your delinguent sons to death, does that mean you are going against God?
I've never met anyone, UCA member or otherwise, who interprets the Bible in this way. Have you?
- When and how did the Bible become the sole word and authority of God?
IMO it's not. I thought I'd already said that quite clearly.
Some members of the UCA do hold this view, but not me. But I do think that those who do hold this view are in far better shape by submitting to the authority of the Bible than by submitting to none at all.
- Who decided it was and what authority did they have to do so?
You'd better ask someone who believes that this has been decided, because I don't. I expect they'll tell you about ecumenical councils and such, but I can't really do their arguments justice as I don't accept them myself.
- I suspect that Someone has convinced you that the Bible is the word of God.
Hmmm. I suspect then that you are convinced that the Bible is *not* the word of God. Am I right?
If so, what do you mean by this?
I personally think of the Bible as a speech act of God. I think this is a far better defined idea, the theory of speech acts was described by J L Austin in "How to do things with words". This idea fits in with modern metaphysics and linguistics rather neatly, as well as with conventional theology, and resolves a lot of the issues IMO. It gives a framework where we can admit the obvious, that the Bible's human authors and copiers and translators may have been inspired by the Spirit but this didn't make them infallible. But at the same time we can affirm that God speaks personally and miraculously through the Bible.
I sometimes use phrases such as "hear the Word of God" when introducing a reading for example. It's a traditional phrase and effective in a certain sort of liturgy. In this experiential, global-thinking context I think it is well understood. But it's not very precise IMO, and can be confusing in any linear-thinking situation. So in prisons, primary schools, seeker services, serious discussions and many other situations I try to avoid it.
- How is this any different to someone convincing someone else that the Koran is the word of God?
I think that the Bible has an authority that the Koran does not have. (Just saying that is a criminal offence in many countries, of course.) I think this is *true*, so that it's not just something I have decided to adopt personally, but rather something that everyone would benefit by believing.
How about you? Do you regard the two of them as equally authoritative? If not, what is special about the Bible? (I'm assuming you don't prefer the Koran.)
- When I read the Bible as though it was the literal word of God I come away thinking that this is a very confused God.
I think that this is more a case of a very confused reader. I have commented previously on "literal" readings. They don't bear up under close scrutiny. Agreed?
- On one hand I read a verse in what is called the ten commandments that says "thou shalt not kill" and then a few verses later this same God is telling the same people to go and slaughter every living thing in the town they are about to conquor.
Yes. I think the tension here was obvious even five thousand years ago.
Such things don't trouble me. They are background noise, but I don't think they make it difficult to hear the message.
- Ultimately I have to say that the Bible is a human creation that tells about a particular race of people in a particular time and place and how they tried to understand their experience of the mystery they called God.
Hmmmm. Fair enough. But you also claim to be a Christian, and I'm glad you have chosen to be one.
So I assume that Jesus Christ has a special place in your life. Doesn't that make the Scriptures he used special too? They are the OT of course. You deal with the NT below.
- The NT basically relates to the experiences of a group of people who had claimed Jesus as the messiah. These people had experienced in this man what they believed to be the presence of God, or more correctly, they had experieced the spirit of this man which they believed to be still with them, even after his execution, in such a way that they found a way of living and being that transcended anything they had experienced before. They then went about telling his story in such a way as to demonstrate that he was the messiah.
Fair enough. And I'd add that these people believed in their message so strongly that only one of the Twelve Disciples seems to have escaped martyrdom. These people had seen Jesus, they knew him, and they were not taking an easy road in continuing to follow him after Easter.
Paul says that if Christ did not physically rise from the dead, the whole Church is misguided and pointless. Do you think he was just plain wrong when he said this, or do you think he might be misquoted? Or is there another explanation?
I'm sure you've heard these arguments and similar ones. But I'm interested in how you answer them.
Personally, I think Paul did write this, and that he was sincere and sane when he did. Which is quite a challenge to me.
- I'm also under the authority of the Holy Spirit, and of the Church. I expect these three to give the same message. If they don't I'm worried. Two out of three doesn't win.
- It's not always easy to tell what God is saying. But my experience is that for every time I seriously wonder what God is saying to me, there are many others when I do know, and the problem is rather that I don't want to do it.
- I believe that once again we are stumbling around our different perceptions of God. I don't see God s a supernatural being who is trying to talk to me.
Not everyone, however holy, hears the very words God uses. Paul of Tarsus did. The Virgin Mary did. The prophet Samuel did. And some people do in this day, I believe, but probably not many. They never were very many in past ages, so I don't expect there to be many now. God chooses them.
I believe it's still possible to know what God wants of us, even if we don't hear the exact words. But if you desire the gift of Prophecy, let's start praying that you will receive it. Do you desire it?
- But what I have found is, that when I live the way of Jesus, the way of love and compassion, I become aware that God is beconing me to action whenever I see people or nature being abused. I confess I fail so often to respond. But I also see God everytime I see new life being born and in some small way I hear the angels singing.
Praise God. May He become more real to both of us.
Yours in Christ
andrew alder
email: andrewa @ alder . ws
http://www.zeta.org.au/~andrewa
Phone 9441 4476
Mobile 04 2525 4476
****
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