Charles, I have to say that I'm surprised at your claims.
1) "Ministers who don't believe that Jesus was a real historical figure." I don't think I've ever met a Uniting Church minister who didn't think Jesus was a real historical figure. If I recall from College days, most of them spent hours arguing whether it's possible to recover the actual historical figure - which of course implies that there was one. 2) "... or that Jesus really died". Ditto. 3) "Jesus underwent physical resurrection". St Paul says it was a *spiritual* body and *contrasts* this with a physical body. See 1 Corinthians 15. He also said Jesus was raised as the firstfruits of the general resurrection, which belongs outside of time. Such notions imply an intrusion into our space-time which cannot be explained in terms of our space-time. Of course, there are those who will follow Bultmann's idea that the resurrection was a "myth" in the technical sense of the term, expressing the conviction that Jesus lives on in our hearts - and nowhere else. This is an idea that all theological students will be exposed to, wherever they study. Some will want to try it on and see if it feels right. Personally I'd have to say as one of those wretched Uniting Church ministers who was enrolled at UTC in the distant past, that I think Bultmann got it wrong. 4) "Salvation is available to people through the death and resurrection of Christ." While it is some years since I was enrolled at UTC, this was standard theology then. Of course, there are different theories of the atonement, and some of them have less grounding in the Bible, and more grounding in the medieval mind. However, I have to say that I think you are asking the wrong questions. No doubt, you've heard the old Irish joke about the man who stopped and asked for directions and was told, "You can't get there from here". Well, I don't think you can get to where you need to go by assuming that what you've been told is true is really true, and complaining that people don't believe it. You have to begin by asking "what is truth" and showing how it's reasonable to believe it. Otherwise faith ends up being "believing in what you know isn't true". Since we are to love the Lord our God with all our heart, strength and MIND, and since we are to pray not just from our spirit but from our mind, I think faith without rational thinking is not authentic faith at all. - Greg http://www.nelsonbay.com/~gc/observatory.htm > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Charles Worthington > Sent: Thursday, 24 June 2004 9:11 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: UTC: Ministers who have lost their faith > > To My Dear Friends on the Insights List > > I have been on this list for 2 years and mostly biting my tongue, spoke out > once and got hammered down. I know we are well trained here not to play out > of bounds, but for goodness sakes this is a chat site frequented by > ministers - most of us are adults and can speak the truth, and someone > should be brave enough to speak out. I really think that someone has to come > out and say it. > > We seem to have a whole generation of Uniting Church Ministers who are > agnostics. Ministers who will give complex rationalisation, or hint that > they could, for why they don't really believe Jesus was a real historical > figure, or Jesus really died, or Jesus underwent a physical resurrection, or > that in fact salvation is available to people thorugh the death and > resurrection of Jesus. > > The Uniting Theological College is largely (entirely?) to blame, one can not > hold it against these ministers, they were lambs to the slaughter, > presumably went in with Christian beliefes but came out with educated > agnosticism. Though a natural reaction is to protest that observation, it is > patently obvious after a weeks of reading emails on this site, not to > mention being involved in the Uniting Church. I know a few ministers who > deliberately chose not to train at UTC, for this very reason. I also chose > not to train at UTC, for the same reason, but I only trained as a missionary > and was not ordained. > > We have a wonderful denomnation in terms of social responsibility, but > really for a church to survive, it needs more than just agnostic social > workers as its ministers. > > Sorry, everyone knows this but someone had to play out of bounds and say it. > > Shalom > > Charles > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get a Credit Card - 60 sec online response: > http://ad.au.doubleclick.net/clk;8097459;9106288;b?http://www.anz.com/aus/prom > o/qantas5000ninemsn > [AU only] > > ------------------------------------------------------ > - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body > 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) > See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm > ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm ------------------------------------------------------
