Andrew, I wonder if you are prepared to contemplate revelation of God beyond the Bible. What makes the Bible the sole/primary revelation of God. Surely this is a faith statement. Not faith in God, but faith in the Bible. What is it that creates faith in the Bible? I'm afraid I can't see what justifies this. The God I know is far more than what the Bible says he/she/it is and sometimes very different to what the Bible says.
Just a few quickies. Allan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Swenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 12:14 PM Subject: RE: Using the bible > Jonathan > > I agree with you on your first point, and that from that you can draw broad > themes about the nature of God, what I found a sense of discord with was the > use of tolerance as a constant nature of God. > > Having read the bible from front cover to back on more occasions than I can > remember, having lost track after about 7, I find that I see God and his > kingdom in broader terms, as in what is God's intent for having a > relationship with us, and I find that in the light of the old testiment (OT) > Paul's letters are not 'books of law' to be learnt by rote, as in they are > not 'do this this and this and you will enter into a relationship with God' > but are guidelines 'because of your relationship with God you will live out > your lives in this way'. > > The God that I have begun to get to know is not a God which I would describe > as tolerant, the OT show's time and time again how God doesn't tolerate the > actions of the Isrealites when they turn away from being in relationship > with him. > > Jesus himself while loving many sinners, is shown in the Gospel's to be very > intolerant of sin and the actions of sinners, for instance the number of > times he berated the religious establishment for their hipocrasy, the > clearing out of the Outer Courtyard of the temple, even in part his call > upon the disciples was to leave your former life and follow me, he didn't > even tolerate people who wanted to follow him but only after they had sorted > out their lives first. > > You could argue that because of Grace God is tolerant, but I think that even > Grace is an indicator of how much God does not tolerate any actions that > separate us from a relationship with him. > > I'm thinking that the Grace of God, that is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as > a means of being able to re-enter into relationship with God, show's that > while God loves us, wants to be in relationship with us and provide us with > blessings beyond our understanding, he can not or will not tolerate any > actions that are not in character with such a relationship. > > If God was a tolerant God, why would Jesus need to have been sacrificed? > Surely God would have been able to tolerate our sin and enter into > relationship with us anyway. > > This train of thought then got me thinking that maybe there is an even > bigger question behind your question about how we use the bible, a question > of how do we see God? Because certainly how I use the bible comes out of > how I see God, and certainly to fall back into a reductionist framework, how > I see God is influenced by my experience not only of God but of life, and > also how I think, how my brain works. > > A good example of how we think affects how we see God & the Bible, is a very > lengthy discussion I once had with a very good friend of mine. To help I > need to set up some stereotypes, you see, I am an architect, and I have > grown up in the UCA, my friend is an engineer, ex Army officer and a > committed baptist. > > Therefore the stereotypes are that my friend see's things in black and > white, there is either a right or wrong answer to everything. Whereas I see > a world of grey, there is may be a right or wrong answer but have I looked > far enough outside the box to be able answer the question definatively? > > Anyway we had this dicussion about the Creation story, I believe that it > could of happened in 7 literal days, but maybe it didn't what's to say that > it wasn't 7 periods of time over the life of the planet as science > describes? To me the important central theme of the Creation story is not > how God created the earth but the fact that he did, that God was creator of > everything on this planet. My friend believes the Creation story was 7 > literal days, that science is wrong, and felt that to believe anything else > was to call into question and endanger the infallability of the Bible. > > So the way we think, or peceive things can colour the way we use the Bible > and potentially how we percieve God. > > I've just brainstormed this so please accept this as just some ramblings of > a guy trying to the best he can to be a follower of God. > > Andrew Swenson > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Arthur > Sent: Tuesday, 3 August 2004 11:28 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Using the bible was RE: theage.com.au ~ GAY ministers still up for > debate > > Hello Greg and others, > > Darren has suggested we stop the debate on sexuality. My point is about the > use of the bible (and Lindsay has raised another good point about how we > regard the church). If we are to continue, I'd like to divorce the topics of > the bible and the church from the issue of sexuality. As I have said many > times already, I think we need to address these issues first and then come > back to the sexuality issue. > > So, with a change of subject line, onto Greg's query addressing the issue > generally... > > "Greg Crawford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >If you could give an example of how you use the Bible to arrive at your > >views it might help to advance the discussion. Then it might be > >possible to compare approaches to see if the approaches are indeed > >different. At the moment I suspect that subjectivity plays a big role; > >a bigger role than the actual approach to the Bible. > > First, I think the bible is a tool for use in gaining understanding about > how to live in response to God, not an end in itself. The value the bible is > that it gives us insight into how Christian and Jewish people before us > understood God. Like any other statement concerning the nature of God it is > at best limited, sometimes faulty, and occasionally completely wrong. So I > use the bible alongside many other tools for understanding God: my own > experience, the experiences of others, prayer, meditation, worship, caring > for people, etc. > > Second, leading on from the first, while I think we have come to understand > that some specific teachings of the bible represent an understanding of God > we have now developed and moved on from, I find the broad themes about the > nature of God in the bible tend to be constant throughout the bible, the > history of the church, and the current experiences of myself and other > Christians. Things like love, justice, tolerance, compassion, grace are all > constant. So in using the bible to understand a particular issue, I am > primarily concerned to see which point of view fits best with these broad > themes. > > Hope that helps. > > Jonathan > > __________________________________________________________________ > Switch to Netscape Internet Service. > As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register > > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web > and block those annoying pop-ups. > Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp > ------------------------------------------------------ > - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body > 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) > See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm > ------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------ > - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) > See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm > ------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------------------ - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm ------------------------------------------------------
