Andrew wrote: > > I am interested, or maybe curious is the right word, and I hesitate because > curiosity killed the cat, by what you mean when you say that your > understanding of God is sometimes very different to what the Bible says. > > Are you talking different in terms of contradiction? or something else? > > Andrew >
Allan Well, what sort of images do we get of God in the OT? In the early stories, particularly the Yahwehist tradition, God is really seen in human terms. (Walks and talks with Adam, Eats and argues with Abraham, wrestles with Jacob and so on.) God is also seen as a vengeful tyrant who wreacks havock and destruction on those who oppose him. (and it was a him.) This God even inflicts incredible suffering and destruction upon his own people, sometimes for seemingly trivial things. This God seems to have very few problems with human sacrifice and thinks nothing of zotting those who oppose him with fire from heaven. This god is a sort of supernatural human type being who lives "up there" in heaven, ie, above the dome that is known as the sky. Sorry, but I don't believe in these images of God any more. But the writers of much of the Bible did and when they talk about this God we are expected to say "This is the Word of the Lord"!!!!!!!!! Hope your curiosity hasn't killed the cat. Grace & Peace Allan > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of aleggett > Sent: Friday, 6 August 2004 1:13 PM > To: Andrew Swenson; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Using the bible > > Andrew, I wonder if you are prepared to contemplate revelation of God beyond > the Bible. What makes the Bible the sole/primary revelation of God. Surely > this is a faith statement. Not faith in God, but faith in the Bible. What is > it that creates faith in the Bible? I'm afraid I can't see what justifies > this. The God I know is far more than what the Bible says he/she/it is and > sometimes very different to what the Bible says. > > Just a few quickies. > Allan > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Swenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, August 06, 2004 12:14 PM > Subject: RE: Using the bible > > > > Jonathan > > > > I agree with you on your first point, and that from that you can draw > broad > > themes about the nature of God, what I found a sense of discord with was > the > > use of tolerance as a constant nature of God. > > > > Having read the bible from front cover to back on more occasions than I > can > > remember, having lost track after about 7, I find that I see God and his > > kingdom in broader terms, as in what is God's intent for having a > > relationship with us, and I find that in the light of the old testiment > (OT) > > Paul's letters are not 'books of law' to be learnt by rote, as in they are > > not 'do this this and this and you will enter into a relationship with > God' > > but are guidelines 'because of your relationship with God you will live > out > > your lives in this way'. > > > > The God that I have begun to get to know is not a God which I would > describe > > as tolerant, the OT show's time and time again how God doesn't tolerate > the > > actions of the Isrealites when they turn away from being in relationship > > with him. > > > > Jesus himself while loving many sinners, is shown in the Gospel's to be > very > > intolerant of sin and the actions of sinners, for instance the number of > > times he berated the religious establishment for their hipocrasy, the > > clearing out of the Outer Courtyard of the temple, even in part his call > > upon the disciples was to leave your former life and follow me, he didn't > > even tolerate people who wanted to follow him but only after they had > sorted > > out their lives first. > > > > You could argue that because of Grace God is tolerant, but I think that > even > > Grace is an indicator of how much God does not tolerate any actions that > > separate us from a relationship with him. > > > > I'm thinking that the Grace of God, that is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ > as > > a means of being able to re-enter into relationship with God, show's that > > while God loves us, wants to be in relationship with us and provide us > with > > blessings beyond our understanding, he can not or will not tolerate any > > actions that are not in character with such a relationship. > > > > If God was a tolerant God, why would Jesus need to have been sacrificed? > > Surely God would have been able to tolerate our sin and enter into > > relationship with us anyway. > > > > This train of thought then got me thinking that maybe there is an even > > bigger question behind your question about how we use the bible, a > question > > of how do we see God? Because certainly how I use the bible comes out of > > how I see God, and certainly to fall back into a reductionist framework, > how > > I see God is influenced by my experience not only of God but of life, and > > also how I think, how my brain works. > > > > A good example of how we think affects how we see God & the Bible, is a > very > > lengthy discussion I once had with a very good friend of mine. To help I > > need to set up some stereotypes, you see, I am an architect, and I have > > grown up in the UCA, my friend is an engineer, ex Army officer and a > > committed baptist. > > > > Therefore the stereotypes are that my friend see's things in black and > > white, there is either a right or wrong answer to everything. Whereas I > see > > a world of grey, there is may be a right or wrong answer but have I looked > > far enough outside the box to be able answer the question definatively? > > > > Anyway we had this dicussion about the Creation story, I believe that it > > could of happened in 7 literal days, but maybe it didn't what's to say > that > > it wasn't 7 periods of time over the life of the planet as science > > describes? To me the important central theme of the Creation story is not > > how God created the earth but the fact that he did, that God was creator > of > > everything on this planet. My friend believes the Creation story was 7 > > literal days, that science is wrong, and felt that to believe anything > else > > was to call into question and endanger the infallability of the Bible. > > > > So the way we think, or peceive things can colour the way we use the Bible > > and potentially how we percieve God. > > > > I've just brainstormed this so please accept this as just some ramblings > of > > a guy trying to the best he can to be a follower of God. > > > > Andrew Swenson > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Arthur > > Sent: Tuesday, 3 August 2004 11:28 AM > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: Using the bible was RE: theage.com.au ~ GAY ministers still up > for > > debate > > > > Hello Greg and others, > > > > Darren has suggested we stop the debate on sexuality. My point is about > the > > use of the bible (and Lindsay has raised another good point about how we > > regard the church). If we are to continue, I'd like to divorce the topics > of > > the bible and the church from the issue of sexuality. As I have said many > > times already, I think we need to address these issues first and then come > > back to the sexuality issue. > > > > So, with a change of subject line, onto Greg's query addressing the issue > > generally... > > > > "Greg Crawford" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > >If you could give an example of how you use the Bible to arrive at your > > >views it might help to advance the discussion. Then it might be > > >possible to compare approaches to see if the approaches are indeed > > >different. At the moment I suspect that subjectivity plays a big role; > > >a bigger role than the actual approach to the Bible. > > > > First, I think the bible is a tool for use in gaining understanding about > > how to live in response to God, not an end in itself. The value the bible > is > > that it gives us insight into how Christian and Jewish people before us > > understood God. Like any other statement concerning the nature of God it > is > > at best limited, sometimes faulty, and occasionally completely wrong. So I > > use the bible alongside many other tools for understanding God: my own > > experience, the experiences of others, prayer, meditation, worship, caring > > for people, etc. > > > > Second, leading on from the first, while I think we have come to > understand > > that some specific teachings of the bible represent an understanding of > God > > we have now developed and moved on from, I find the broad themes about the > > nature of God in the bible tend to be constant throughout the bible, the > > history of the church, and the current experiences of myself and other > > Christians. Things like love, justice, tolerance, compassion, grace are > all > > constant. So in using the bible to understand a particular issue, I am > > primarily concerned to see which point of view fits best with these broad > > themes. > > > > Hope that helps. > > > > Jonathan > > > > __________________________________________________________________ > > Switch to Netscape Internet Service. > > As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at > http://isp.netscape.com/register > > > > Netscape. Just the Net You Need. > > > > New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the > Web > > and block those annoying pop-ups. > > Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message > body > > 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) > > See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message > body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) > > See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm > > ------------------------------------------------------ > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body > 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) > See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm > ------------------------------------------------------ > > ------------------------------------------------------ > - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) > See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm > ------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------------------ - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm ------------------------------------------------------
