Hi Alan. There have been some pretty good heretics in the history of the Church; I think mostly they're just asking questions and finding answers that the power brokers in the Church aren't ready to hear yet. So, happy to be in that company, thanks. I've not seen any stakes lately (nor steaks, for that matter), but 20-20 hindsight is easy. I wonder how we burn heretics these days?
I've not read Borg, but the death of supernatural theism is one of the themes in Spong and various others, some of which I have read. Personally I'm not ready to discount all of the supernatural -- but I guess that depends a lot on what we mean by natural, and thus what's super to that. Do unexpected and inexplicable results arise from/after prayer to God? Sometimes they do. Is that natural, or supernatural? The world might say "supernatural", Christians might say "natural". But is God always supernatural? Nope, that's what incarnation is about, and crucifixion (the "supernatural" bit around the cross came after Jesus physically died like the rest of us will, although hopefully not as painfully). By the way, by power brokers I don't mean leaders of the Synod or Assembly; I work amidst the institution of the UCA, but am also a member and a student of theology. I was disappointed by the old "minority leaders are out of touch with majority grassroots" claim the EMU lobby and others have fanned over the past few years. I think it's more accurate to say that a minority of leaders with progressive theology are in a different place from a minority of leaders with conservative theology, and that much of the UCA is in the middle (yes, Bandy and others have identified this kind of statistical bell-curve). The power brokers I was referring to don't work in the Synods and Assembly that I've seen, but are often older people who've been part of the Church their whole lives, have particular views on theology and ecclesiology that have started to "set" because they're not engaged by the evolution of ideas that ongoing study (academic or otherwise) produces, and are worried that changes will threaten to de-stabilise the rock of their faith in a world that's already threatening in its pace of change. When these power brokers come up against newly-trained and newly-keened ministers, who are paid from their pockets and whose placement was approved by them and who have been members of that community for decades, it's little wonder that the power brokers win most times. Back to prayer. Does healing result from prayer? Sometimes. Is it predictable? Nope, and I think that's what makes prayer supernatural. Does rain result from rain clouds? Sometimes. Is it predictable? Nope, so maybe rain clouds are supernatural too. Does rain result from prayer about rain clouds? Sometimes. Is it predictable? Nope, again. Was it going to rain anyway, or did the prayer change the mind of God? It's raining outside this morning. Who's been praying? Regards, Rohan Rohan Pryor Manager, Information Technology Services Synod of Victoria and Tasmania Uniting Church in Australia Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ph: (03) 9251 5243 Fax: (03) 9654 4110 Website: http://vic.uca.org.au -----Original Message----- From: aleggett [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:18 PM To: Rohan Pryor; insights-l Subject: Re: Praying for Rain Wow Rohan. You might nearly have knocked me off the perch as chief heretic around here. I would suggest that the questions you ask are all related to the death and dying of "supernatural theism" (Marcos Borg's terminology) and eventually the church will have to wrestle with these questions at all levels of decision making before it can ever hope to be a meaningful presence in the modern world. Grace & Peace Allan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rohan Pryor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "insights-l" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 12:26 PM Subject: RE: Praying for Rain > [Disclaimer: Greg lightly touched a nerve in asking a good question which > reveals something of the underlying theology of our faithful practices that > too-often lies unconscious and unaddressed (IMO this is the sort of > theological question we should be thrashing out on the floor of the > Assembly, way before sexuality). Passion follows, and comes from my own > personal experience and a deep desire to understand what theology says to > this experience, and what experience says to this theology. My wife and I > are deeply grateful for the blessing of our son, who turned one year old > about two weeks ago.] > > The link between rain and earthly fertility is obviously ancient, as is the > link between earthly fertility and human fertility. > > In the Old testament God is also given the power of procreation, > specifically God "opens" or "closes" wombs, and it's again easy to assume > that the exercise of this power must be related to whether the womb-bearer > has been "good" or "bad" (otherwise god would be an unreliable and sadistic > bastard, surely). That is, barrenness is often a sign of God's rebuke, and > of course in contrast when it rains (metaphorically), God's > apparently-favoured ones have heaps of sons (and many daughters too, > thankfully). > > But again we encounter the same problem as Greg flags: "bad" people have > kids too (and often many of them), while "good" folks lie barren. We have > several couples in our friendship network who have struggled with > barrenness for many years, some for over a decade. They're "good" people, > caring people, often deeply Christian people who have prayed faithfully for > God's blessing. And some of these fear that they're barren because of > something "bad" they once did. What kind of cold-hearted god would refuse > such faithful and heartfelt petitions from a committed couple with the > capacity to bring up children in loving and secure families, whether or not > they were once "bad"? Where is Grace? And in contrast, why are the teenage > single mothers who smoke while nursing their kids so bloody fertile? > > To return closer to Greg's issue, if you prayed for rain in Bangladesh > recently, you overdid it. Or if you were praying for rain in Australia and > accidentally thought of Bangladesh, maybe you'd better be more careful next > time. How in heaven's name can we seriously pray for rain, or even > pregnancy, with the expectation that God will fulfil our personal wishes? > Better surely to pray for those affected by each situation, and for those > who can help such situations. Some situations can't be "fixed" by even the > most earnest prayer (terminal cancer is one example that comes to mind), > and that's not through any lack of faith in God's "healing power". Miracles > do happen at times, but also at others they don't, and if it all depends on > faith and the depth of prayer, god is a real bastard. I don't thing God is > one, even if the parentage of Jesus is a bit vague. > > Tongue removed from cheek, passion returned to box. > > Regards, > > Rohan > > Rohan Pryor > Manager, Information Technology Services > Synod of Victoria and Tasmania > Uniting Church in Australia > > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Ph: (03) 9251 5243 > Fax: (03) 9654 4110 > Website: http://vic.uca.org.au > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Crawford [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2004 11:02 AM > To: insights-l > Subject: Praying for Rain > > I note in today's Daily Telegraph the Anglican Dean of Sydney, Phillip > Jensen, > is calling for next Sunday to be a national day of prayer for rain. He is > quoted > as saying, "Only God can make it rain". This is in the context of an > article > expressing great sympathy for those who are drought-affected. > > > > Of course, this raises the question about prayer for rain. Is this a valid > prayer, or, as some have said, "when it rains, it rains"? > > > > In the Old Testament, drought is often a sign of God's rebuke. I can only > assume, living in the place which has recently had the State's highest > rainfall, > that God is giving his sign of approval to my ministry. > > > > In the New Testament, Jesus says God sends rain on the good and bad alike. > Now > that's going to bugger up my theology above, so I'll just have to assume > that > these words were put on Jesus' lips by some faith community living in a > drought-affected area. And after all, since there are more books in the Old > Testament than the New Testament, there are more scriptures in support of > my > theory. > > > > Just a special request: Can all of you praying for rain please have it > confined > to the bright cycle of the Moon? That is, between first and last quarter. > It's > one thing to have "showers of blessing", but I would also feel "blessed" if > I > could have some clear, starry nights as well. So would those who want to do > shearing during this time. > > > > I'll have to take my tongue out of my cheek, 'cause it makes my face look > even > stranger. Is it valid to pray for rain? If God can create a universe, can't > God > make it rain? You can't say that God doesn't interfere in nature. Crikey, > virgin > births, miracle cures, resurrections and the like! > > > > Regards > > Greg > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------ > - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) > See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm > ------------------------------------------------------ > ------------------------------------------------------ - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------ - You are subscribed to the mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, email [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put in the message body 'unsubscribe insights-l' (ell, not one (1)) See: http://nsw.uca.org.au/insights-l-information.htm ------------------------------------------------------
