Folks, +1
On 15/8/19 20:45, Ron Bonica wrote: > Joe, > > I am fine with this text if everybody else is. > > Ron > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Touch <to...@strayalpha.com> > Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 10:21 AM > To: Ron Bonica <rbonica=40juniper....@dmarc.ietf.org> > Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com>; Alissa Cooper > <ali...@cooperw.in>; Tom Herbert <t...@herbertland.com>; Joel Halpern > <joel.halp...@ericsson.com>; draft-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; > int-area <int-area@ietf.org>; IESG <i...@ietf.org>; intarea-chairs > <intarea-cha...@ietf.org> > Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on > draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) > > Well, there’s the tautology that “it worked when it worked”. > > Given that’s basically the rule that defines *everything* in the Internet, > it’s baffling we need to say it again here, but if we did, we could simply > state: > > “The Internet is a best-effort system and lacks a formal validation or > conformance mechanism. Like any other protocol feature, IP fragmentation is > useful only when it actually works - both by successfully traversing routers > and other in-network devices and when it is correctly supported by endpoints. > As a consequence, like any other protocol feature, IP fragmentation MAY be > used by new protocols that validate its successful traversal and provide an > alternate as a backup.” > > (and yes, if we’re going to try to imply that frag is limited, it really > should be clear that this is *no different than any other protocol feature* > in the Internet) > > Joe > >> On Aug 15, 2019, at 6:59 AM, Ron Bonica >> <rbonica=40juniper....@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> Has anyone proposed text that: >> >> a) satisfies Alissa's request >> b) satisfies the WG >> >> If not, do we believe that such text could possibly exist? >> >> Ron >> >> >> >> >> Juniper Business Use Only >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpen...@gmail.com> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 8:55 PM >> To: Alissa Cooper <ali...@cooperw.in>; Tom Herbert >> <t...@herbertland.com> >> Cc: Joel Halpern <joel.halp...@ericsson.com>; >> draft-ietf-intarea-frag-frag...@ietf.org; int-area >> <int-area@ietf.org>; IESG <i...@ietf.org>; intarea-chairs >> <intarea-cha...@ietf.org> >> Subject: Re: [Int-area] Alissa Cooper's Discuss on >> draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT) >> >> On 07-Aug-19 12:11, Alissa Cooper wrote: >>> Hi Tom, >>> >>>> On Aug 6, 2019, at 5:41 PM, Tom Herbert <t...@herbertland.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 1:30 PM Alissa Cooper via Datatracker >>>> <nore...@ietf.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for >>>>> draft-ietf-intarea-frag-fragile-15: Discuss >>>>> >>>>> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to >>>>> all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to >>>>> cut this introductory paragraph, however.) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Please refer to >>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_i >>>>> e >>>>> sg_statement_discuss-2Dcriteria.html&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh >>>>> 0 >>>>> UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=Fch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThK >>>>> P >>>>> 8&m=IUZsPOprgYi_5nBSPGeqNCLb8LwDMKCxRNeEBfcUZ5c&s=c7tAk-Lfr6pcQSMn1 >>>>> x 1tdfjkQsL8F_NryIiq3caZ26k&e= for more information about IESG >>>>> DISCUSS and COMMENT positions. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here: >>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__datatracker.ie >>>>> t >>>>> f.org_doc_draft-2Dietf-2Dintarea-2Dfrag-2Dfragile_&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYu >>>>> h >>>>> 63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=Fch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AW >>>>> F >>>>> 2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=IUZsPOprgYi_5nBSPGeqNCLb8LwDMKCxRNeEBfcUZ5c&s=lb6 >>>>> u 0SVhJIFnTV7TdqeLiDBfadRxJkAxNEDqOvFqhyQ&e= >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> - >>>>> -- >>>>> DISCUSS: >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> - >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> Thanks for writing this document. >>>>> >>>>> Section 6.1 says: >>>>> >>>>> "Developers MAY develop new protocols or applications that rely on >>>>> IP fragmentation if the protocol or application is to be run only >>>>> in environments where IP fragmentation is known to be supported." >>>>> >>>>> I'm wondering if there should be a bit more nuance here to make the >>>>> recommendation clearer. Do we think there is a case where an >>>>> application protocol developed in the IETF will be known to only >>>>> run in environments where fragmentation is supported? If we don't >>>>> think developing such a protocol would be in scope for the IETF, >>>>> then I'm wondering if that case should be called out explicitly with a >>>>> stronger normative requirement. >>>>> >>>> Alissa, >>>> >>>> Are you distinguishing between protocol development and application >>>> development? >>> >>> I’m specifically wondering about application protocols (as distinct from >>> other protocols) developed in the IETF (as distinct from developed >>> elsewhere). Sometimes we use BCPs to guide future work in the IETF >>> specifically, and it seemed to me that in that specific slice — >>> IETF-developed application protocols — we may be able to make a stronger >>> recommendation since we can’t be sure of the environment in which any given >>> application protocol would be deployed (I think, but would be open to >>> arguments otherwise). >> >> fwiw, I agree with what I think Alissa is saying. Unless we actually >> *implement* a mechanism to define and support limited domains >> (draft-carpenter-limited-domains) protocol designers cannot safely make >> assumptions such as "fragmentation works". >> >> Maybe this paragraph needs to be more of a health warning than a somewhat >> dubious RFC2119 statement. At least, "should not ... unless" might be a >> better formulation than "MAY ... if". >> >> Brian >> _______________________________________________ >> Int-area mailing list >> Int-area@ietf.org >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mail >> man_listinfo_int-2Darea&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=Fch9FQ82sir-BoLx84hKuKwl-AWF2EfpHcAwrDThKP8&m=eXUulHqfbw3R3myfDaucAqDwAy7RLoWhE407vuTA0Mo&s=VMkjr7T57NEpDAKpUz6DP8lDN3K2Q69yenoxF6WUtDU&e= -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fg...@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 _______________________________________________ Int-area mailing list Int-area@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area
