On 11 Nov 2008, at 00:07 , Sebastien Lelong wrote:

> Thanks *you* for reading and exposing your point of view !
>
> I think I'm done with this topic. At least I'd like to :) This is  
> an eternal debate, I understand the pros and the cons of using  
> zlib. I don't want to work with the cons. So, if you, jallib guys,  
> can tell me what you'll do with binaries other than programmed  
> chips (ie. hex files, python scripts embedded in a main exe script,  
> any other binaries in the future), go with zlib.


You can't just be done with it, we have to pick a license. Since we  
appointed you as Benevolent Dictator, you have to make the final  
decision.


My history, present use and future plans with JAL:

On a certain moment, one of my (prototype) products needed a  
microcontroller. After some research, the PIC had the most sales and  
a vibrant user community. I liked JAL for its smartness and easy  
readability and active mailing list. The fact that the architect of  
the compiler lived in the same country was a bonus as well.

I've worked with JAL for years, making all kinds of sensors networks,  
controls, etc. After mastering the art of board making, I can now  
have a dedicated controller board in as less as a day, starting from  
scratch. For an inventor, this is a huge improvement. For example: my  
prototype machines run on several PCB's max 3"x3" (mostly Dwarf  
Boards with custom daughters), while the factory machines have  
several (sometimes four) 4'x3' steel racks chock-full of expensive  
PLC's which perform the same function, which take weeks to assemble  
and can't be reprogrammed by the factory: they need a special company  
to do that, which keeps the "source" closed.
I've given up transferring programs to other people, this is nearly  
impossible.

Some of my products that are not on the market yet, need  
microcontroller control. I have not yet convinced the factory to go  
with JAL, they are not even convinced of writing their own software,  
but that day will come. To me, it is unimaginable to sell products  
where the embedded code complies with "specifications" but is unknown  
to the manufacturer. Yet, this is common practice in the business  
world. Only manufacturers who make both hardware and software can  
rise to levels where they can't be matched. Apple is a good example  
of this.  It will take Google years to reach the level of the iPhone  
with Android and when they get there, Apple has moved three upgrades  
beyond that.

Another thing: in today's world, you can't make money on basic  
devices. If you make something, there is always a Chinese who will  
take it apart and make it cheaper. Sophisticated software cannot be  
written in China yet and sophisticated hardware (chips) can't be made  
there. So the trick is to charge for software or bundle software with  
your device and ask a premium price. If you keep up the pace of  
innovation, you can't be beaten.

I plan to do the latter and for that I need peer-reviewed JAL  
libraries. So helping with jallib is in my and my company's interest,  
beside being fun. Yes, I will always give credit. I might even  
silkscreen the jallib URL on the PCB, although that might actually  
scare people who will not use it, afraid of GPL-like consequences.
Yes, I will distribute .hex files to other companies and no, I can't  
guarantee they will distribute them with the necessary paperwork and  
attribution.

For a company to use JAL, the less strings attached, the better. The  
more people use JAL, the better.

For a European, understanding the US legal system is quite hard. It  
is often used in the business world for squashing competitors who  
can't afford to pay lawyers. So we should not force users of JAL to  
do anything. Yes, attribution is good, but I take as much  
satisfaction in having my code in millions of devices that improve  
living for their users, even if no attribution is given.

The goal for me is to have a large pool of software with lots and  
lots of examples, even detailed descriptions of complete devices  
including their internet connection, to enable anyone to start with  
PICs. The coming decade will bring the huge benefits of the  
communications revolution to the other half of humankind and barriers  
to participating in this revolution for - say, an entrepreneur from  
India - should be as low as possible.


That said, I like the Zlib license, since it keeps attribution with  
the original and asks for acknowledgment. It is an existing license,  
compatible with GPL.

Please make a decision, we need to go on.

---
ir EE van Andel [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.fiwihex.nl
Fiwihex B.V. Wierdensestraat 74, NL7604BK Almelo, Netherlands
tel+31-546-491106 fax+31-546-491107



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