--- In [email protected], "Marina Jovanoviæ" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Yep, I agree about "you", that's why I used it as an example. I once > received a very strange e-mail. After the usual opening, there was one sentence that started with "anata", and I felt offended. But then the rest of the e-mail was all respectful, polite and honorific, so I was really baffled about it. I actually showed it to my professors (both Serbian and Japanese), and they found it very nice and sincere, the politeness wasn't sarcastic or patronizing or anything, but they couldn't account for the "anata" either. Weird...>
>From what I've seen, "anata" is used as a polite word when the listener is unknown. Otherwise, at least the speaker should use the name of the listener when addressing him directly. If the wirter of that letter knew your name and he didn't use it, then of course you would feel offended. Even so, chances are that he wanted to account for your relative status as well as your name, so "Marina-san" or "Jovanoviae-san" alone would not cut it. Maybe he wanted to say something like "Marina-daijin", but did not know whether to do so. Now, when addressing someone directly, is it better to use "san", "dono", or "sama", or should the profession name follow the person's name? I've run into instances in Spanish where we invariably address a person by their profession, at least in formal circumstances; "licenciado Sacristan" or "ingeniero Sacristan" vs. "Senor Sacristan". > I should correct myself a bit - when I mention keigo, I refer only to humble and honorific forms of the language. We learn the formal/polite forms first, than the plain (informal forms) and then everything else. So I see the polite form as a basis, and go up or down from it, depending on the situation. So, with that in mind, my experience with keigo is mostly theoretical, as the only time I ever had to use it was when I spoke to the Japanese ambassador to Serbia. Only briefly, though, because he moved the conversation to Serbian pretty quickly :) > > Marina> Was it sonkeigo or teineigo that your were using at the time? Maybe he saw that your use of keigo was rather unnatural and thus decided to use Serbian in the exchange. Or maybe he refused to be impressed by your command of formal Japanese, even if you could use it fluently. Then again, maybe it would have been rude of him to use Japanese to convey information that his Serbian colleagues needed to know. This last reason I believe to be the most likely. Sonkeigo is a style of speech that must be mastered per se, just as with formal speech in any other language. Personally I find it very elegant to the point of being engrossing. However, Japanese society is still, for the most part, rather exclusive when it comes to relating to outsiders and, even though the Japanese in your specific profession will accept you with open arms, most other people will see you as a complete stranger. (I suppose you are intimately familiar with the role of the formal introduction in Japanese culture.) So, if you get to use sonkeigo in your exchanges with Japanese aristocrats and other such noble figures, consider yourself blessed. - Arian I. > On 2/15/07, Ainslie Mark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > "You" is very hard to use in Japanese. I've been > > studying the language for a long time (10+ years) and > > have spent a year on high school exchange as well as > > studying engineering in grad school now (for 2.5 > > years). Many people address each other using their > > names or without a reference to you at all - I assume > > this is another part of the non-direct/assuming nature > > of Japanese language. > > > > "Nan da yo" can be used with your friends as in saying > > "What?" but it's more of a "What do you want!" It can > > also be used in fights and in an insulting manner. > > > > Regarding keigo, it's a great experience being in a > > Japanese research lab, which is similar to an office > > setting. I'm a 1st year Master's student, so I talk to > > all those students above me (2nd year Master's, > > Doctorate, etc.) in the generic formal language, then > > even more formal (honorific) in regards to the > > teachers/professors. Those below me (only the final > > year undergraduates) do I talk informally (i.e. > > talking 'down' to them). > > > > I find it difficult to feel like I have made > > friendships - there's the guy sitting next to me who > > I'm closest with, but I'm always talking politely to > > him as he's the year above me. It feels like there is > > a barrier there, but perhaps that's just my view being > > a foreigner. You're just expressing your relationship > > in terms of keigo? > > > > > > --- Marina Jovanoviæ <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <tennotsukai%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > > I see. So "Nan da yo?" said by a flirtatious woman > > > and a neurotic > > > > gangster are two different things. Right? > > > > > > Well, "Nan da yo?" is along the lines of a very > > > irritated and impatient > > > "WHAT!?" It's not really an insult, it's just rude. > > > So you may expect that > > > anyone saying that is really not pleased with you. > > > Japanese insults are much more subtle than that. > > > Sure, there are open > > > insults and swear words, but in Japanese, depending > > > on the situation, > > > someone can offend you by simply using the wrong > > > word for "you". Or > > > pronouncing that word with the wrong voice. Or by > > > using "you" at all. It's > > > all in the context. > > > > > > > I see. Again. Then again, using the wrong style of > > > speech in the > > > > wrong situation is the same as taboo speech, as > > > far as I know. > > > > Imagine using "hanashikotoba" when speaking to a > > > doctor, vs. > > > > using "sonkeigo" when talking to your friends. An > > > elderly man once > > > > told me not to use any "sonkeigo" in my [e-mail] > > > conversations with > > > > him, but instead to use "teineigo"; using "agaru" > > > with my verbs > > > > seemed snobbish on my part. > > > > > > Well, you'd talk politely to an elderly person you > > > respect in English too, > > > right? Makes sense. > > > English doesn't have that distinction, but, for > > > example, in French and my > > > own language (Serbian) there are different words and > > > for talking to someone > > > who you know well and someone you don't > > > know/respect/who is older than you. > > > > > > > That is why I am seriously studying what style to > > > use in what > > > > situation. If I make friends, I do not want to be > > > caught in the know- > > > > nothing and my Japanese sounding "unnatural". I > > > have yet to master > > > > the different styles of speech found in Japanese. > > > I may even be > > > > required to address the Emperor or one of his > > > household. (Unlikely, > > > > but you never know.) > > > > > > You'd use "keigo" with someone so high up the > > > ladder, but as you said, > > > you're not that likely to need it :) > > > > > > Marina > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2/15/07, ai3131 <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <ai3131%40yahoo.com>> wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In > > > > > [email protected] <Japanese_Language% 40yahoogroups.com> > > <Japanese_Language%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > > Ainslie Mark > > > > <beckstar_18au@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Learning insults are fun and a small, but > > > important > > > > > part of language learning. Japanese insults are > > > > > (mostly) different to Western (English) insults > > > in > > > > > that it is generally the tone of the voice and > > > body > > > > > language that turn a word into an insult.> > > > > > > > > I see. So "Nan da yo?" said by a flirtatious woman > > > and a neurotic > > > > gangster are two different things. Right? > > > > > > > > > Often high school students use this kind of > > > language, > > > > > but in an affectionate way. I remember being > > > called > > > > > 'ba--ka!' when I was an exchange student - > > > whenever I > > > > > made a silly joke - you know the kind of joke > > > only > > > > > your parents might say!> > > > > > > > > I see. Again. Then again, using the wrong style of > > > speech in the > > > > wrong situation is the same as taboo speech, as > > > far as I know. > > > > Imagine using "hanashikotoba" when speaking to a > > > doctor, vs. > > > > using "sonkeigo" when talking to your friends. An > > > elderly man once > > > > told me not to use any "sonkeigo" in my [e-mail] > > > conversations with > > > > him, but instead to use "teineigo"; using "agaru" > > > with my verbs > > > > seemed snobbish on my part. > > > > > > > > > If you were just to know 'textbook' (formal) > > > Japanese, > > > > > it comes across as stiff and as a barrier to > > > effective > > > > > communication, so learning slang (including > > > insults) > > > > > puts you on a more intimate level with Japanese > > > > > people. I'd feel more at home with a non-native > > > > > English speaker who said 'G'day mate, how are > > > ya?' > > > > > (yes, I'm an Aussie), than someone who spoke > > > formally > > > > > and said 'Good day, sir. How goes you on this > > > fine > > > > > day? ' It's just not right ... > > > > > > > > > > Mark> > > > > > > > > That is why I am seriously studying what style to > > > use in what > > > > situation. If I make friends, I do not want to be > > > caught in the know- > > > > nothing and my Japanese sounding "unnatural". I > > > have yet to master > > > > the different styles of speech found in Japanese. > > > I may even be > > > > required to address the Emperor or one of his > > > household. (Unlikely, > > > > but you never know.) > > > > > > > > - Arian I. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Japanese_Language/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Japanese_Language/join (Yahoo! 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