Ron Yorston wrote:
> Michael Emmel wrote:
>
> >Peter Graves wrote:
> >
> >> The authors of the Enlightenment window manager have some
> >> interesting comments today about Java:
> >>
> >> http://www.enlightenment.org/news.html
> >>
> >> Their basic point is that "Java under X (AWT) is Broken"; they
> >> don't mention which Java implementation they're referring to.
> >>
> [snip]
> >
> >Actually java works well under KDE some bugs under Windowmaker major bugs
> >under Enlightenment .
> >Gnome seems to break stuff too.
> >I wont except bug reports for linux unless there verified under KDE.
>
> This is the sort of unhelpful attitude we've been seeing from Sun as well:
> so long as things work under CDE there isn't a problem. Well, there is a
> problem. People use window managers other than KDE and CDE and Java
> applications don't work the same way as other applications under, say, fvwm.
>
> It's my understanding that the fundamental problem is as described in the
> Enlightenment comments: Sun have made a (IMHO bad) design decision that
> Java will attempt to subsume some of the functions of the window manager.
> This requires Java to have much more knowledge about things like window
> manager decorations than is reasonable to expect.
Now your getting to the real problem. What gets me mad is Java application
developers are caught in the crossfire of a pissing contest between Sun and X11
window manager developers.
Instead of pointing fingers how about this.
The Enlightenment team offers to work with classpath to provide a powerful open
set of bindings for X11 window managers/ XServers these binding classes will
at the
minimum support implementing Java AWT Frame and Window peers using only there
java api.
Also enough support to implement various types of even filters for modal
dialogs.
At the minimum is would be really cool if the api allowed me to get a undecorated
window
with full keyboard and mouse support this would allow developement of Java
desktops which
work with the WindowManager and X applications.
Other cool features would be support for "clear" windows alpha support would be
even
better were possible.
These need not be the peers themselves. Hopefully this solution will be written
on xlib
and be highly portable but the only important part is the api guarantees a
standard set of
bindings. Now instead of Java VM developers having to create a compliant
implementation.
The burden is placed on the Window Manager developers. All they must provide is a
set of classes and maybe a shared library.
Here is a xlib implementation all in java
http://www.cs.umb.edu/~eugene/XTC/
Plus there is The gnu classpath project japhar and kaffe.
Thus there is plenty of open source code out there which can be used to implement
such a library. It may even be best to put the java bindings inside the Xlib
implementations.
this would require the cooperation of a much smaller set of X Server developers.
My point is I think the best solution for java and X would be to provide a set
of low level
java bindings with the Window Manager and or X11 server. The core library should
be
clean and simple and be enough to support the standard AWT cool extensions should
be kept in other jars and shared libraries.
Thus we have viable proactive open source solution to the X/Java problem instead
of sitting around waiting for Sun. So to me the burden of java support under X
should be upon
the Window Manager and maybe the X server developers since they can provide the
best java bindings for X. This is not the attitude taken by the Enlightenment
teams
answer to to issues with java. Instead they treat java as just another X
application instead
of trying to provide the best support for java.To me this means java bindings.
Especially when you look at good support for Java2D which really needs OpenGL
style
support.
I'm sure the blackdown guys would be amenable to such a solution and Sun would
should be open to a set of standard low level windowing api's for java on X.
Since these api's are for "porting" the JVM there development can be far more
flexible.
Mike
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