Agreed Victor..However, these are also brain-storming sessions that seem to bring out new things for us..
Maybe to a limit, as what Kevin & Liam said, things are alright .only to a point.. So finally, what and how do you measure Scala & Java wrt complexity and readibility. regards, jd On 8/8/10, Viktor Klang <[email protected]> wrote: > Guys, > > this discussion is becoming more and more blurred. > There are infinitely different situations with different needs and different > constraints, there is no point in trying to argue that solution X will work > for everyone. > > Lets just do what we do best and see what will work and what won't work, > I know people who still code in RPG[1] and they're making a good profit, > and I know people who code in C#4[2] and have red figures on the bottom > line. > > All I can say is that I feel very fortunate to be paid to write Scala, > working with one of the most brilliant minds[3] of the community and on, in > my opinion, one of the most interesting products[4] in its niche - that's > success for me. However I fully respect that success for someone else might > mean something entirely different. > > The risk of these discussions is that they very often turn into > Blub[5]-debates or simply degenerating into argumentum ad hominem[6]. > > So please, everyone, join hands and sing. > > "Java, Scala, Java-Scala jing jing jing." > > Cheers, > > [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RPG > [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_4.0 > [3]: http://www.jonasboner.com/ > [4]: http://www.akkasource.com/ > [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blub#Blub > [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem > > PS. ARRR! Avast ye landlubbers! > > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Liam Knox <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Productivity: >> >> Why aren't companies buying Scala if it is so productive? >> I really don't get this. If everyone was a Genius you could define an >> infinitely concise language with infinite productivity. >> My assessment of Scala is that for the general developer, and for a firm, >> it is less productive than Java >> >> And why does everyone keep talking about DSL's? >> >> The financial industry has yet to even define common descriptions of >> business entities let alone behavior. >> DSL's appear to be being viewed in the same as AI was 10 years ago, some >> kind of panacea >> They are not. For a useful DSL you need consensus, multiple parties and >> uptake. >> >> Having a language with an ability to design a DSL can in many ways be >> counter productive. >> >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Mario Fusco <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> > 1. Conciseness : You can always have bad code regardless of >>> conciseness, >>> > see Perl or APL for good examples. I don't buy this argument at all. >>> Good >>> > Java development can produce very concise code already. This is not a >>> > winning argument >>> >>> Of course you can write awful code regardless of the language. >>> Nevertheless conciseness can be a winning factor especially in the >>> long terms. The cost to maintain a software is directly proportional >>> to the number of its LOCs. >>> >>> > 2. Productivity: The argument of individual productivity is completely >>> > irrelevant. You have to look a teams and indeed whole firms on this >>> point >>> >>> Productivity is the real winning point of Scala if you use it in the >>> right way. A few examples to justify this statement: >>> >>> a. The most important part of any meaningful application is its >>> business model. Try to leverage the Scala features in order to write a >>> small DSL implementing that business model and let the other guys of >>> your team to use your DSL. The result will be an higher productivity >>> and an easier to read and to maintain source code. >>> b. Scala is the most extensible language I know. It allows to abstract >>> the most common patterns you use in your code and to define your own >>> keywords and constructs. In turns that allows you to reduce code >>> repetitions (conciseness) and to avoid to reinvent the wheel day by >>> day (productivity). >>> c. The actor model, when you master it, is less error prone and more >>> productive than the multithreading features (based on synchronization) >>> natively provided by Java. >>> >>> > 3. Complexity: Java is less complex this is a plus point fact. >>> >>> Yes, Scala is more powerful and then more complex than Java. In my >>> opinion this is a pro. If I didn't like complexity I'd program in >>> VisualBasic :) >>> >>> > 4: Open Source momentum: Even though you have interop the opensource >>> Java >>> > Libraries will all feel more natural in the pure Java world. >>> >>> Java is around from 15 years and has millions of developers. Of course >>> you have more tools and libraries in Java than in Scala. Anyway some >>> of those libraries are there only to overcome some Java limitations >>> (mine, lambdaj, is a valid example of that) and others could be more >>> powerful and easier to be used thanks to better Scala extensibility. >>> The wonderful Akka project ( http://akkasource.org/ ) is a good >>> example of that. It is just a matter of time and in the meanwhile you >>> can still use the Java libraries with a not so big effort. >>> >>> > 5. Functional Programming: Most developers see this as a big plus >>> > point >>> but >>> > one must keep asking why, as functional programming has been around for >>> > donkeys years, has it still had little impact to date? >>> >>> Why do object oriented vs functional programming discussions often >>> sound so similar to catholics vs muslims ones? Scala is the >>> demonstration that the two programming models can coexist in the same >>> language. >>> >>> Why does functional programming still has a so little impact? Well, >>> probably for the same reasons why Windows is still far more used than >>> Unix-based operating systems: >>> >>> a. It is less powerful and then less complex. People are lazy and >>> don't want to put their brain at work. But we, as developers, should >>> let our brains working. >>> b. It is easily available. The biggest part of the pc are sell with >>> Windows already installed. In the same way managers and companies ask >>> for Java developer since they are easier to be sell. >>> c. For some reason, especially in our field, the best technology is >>> rarely the winning one. >>> >>> Bye, >>> Mario Fusco >>> twitter: @mariofusco >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "The Java Posse" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "The Java Posse" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> >> . >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > Viktor Klang, > Code Connoisseur > ======================= > Code: github.com/jboner/akka > Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang > Read: klangism.tumbler.com > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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