On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 4:11 PM, jitesh dundas <[email protected]> wrote:
> Agreed Victor..However, these are also brain-storming sessions that > seem to bring out new things for us.. > Absolutely, but then we probably should talk in X vs Y, but explore the concepts, possibilities and constraints of X separately from Y. Otherwise we risk getting caught in sad parts of the human mind - like thinking that things are wrong because they are unfamiliar. > Maybe to a limit, as what Kevin & Liam said, things are alright .only > to a point.. > > So finally, what and how do you measure Scala & Java wrt complexity > and readibility. > What is the purpose of the measurement? Define readability and complexity so we can be on the same page as one another. Are we talking about language spec. complexity, or the complexity in one use of said language? Because the latter surely might as well be measuring the level of proficiency and professionalism of the author of the code. Or even the values of the person in charge of the author of the code. We have to stay aware about the importance of choosing appropriate tools for what we do, what's appropriate is always a judgement call, we cannot rely on scientific, absolute, methods that will let us work without using our minds, hearts and a cup of coffee. Different companies have different people with different values and different experiences and what's suitable for some might be disastrous for others. What we can agree on is to try to have an open mind, to view things from different perspectives, without prejudice - before - we make our decisions. > > regards, > jd > > On 8/8/10, Viktor Klang <[email protected]> wrote: > > Guys, > > > > this discussion is becoming more and more blurred. > > There are infinitely different situations with different needs and > different > > constraints, there is no point in trying to argue that solution X will > work > > for everyone. > > > > Lets just do what we do best and see what will work and what won't work, > > I know people who still code in RPG[1] and they're making a good profit, > > and I know people who code in C#4[2] and have red figures on the bottom > > line. > > > > All I can say is that I feel very fortunate to be paid to write Scala, > > working with one of the most brilliant minds[3] of the community and on, > in > > my opinion, one of the most interesting products[4] in its niche - that's > > success for me. However I fully respect that success for someone else > might > > mean something entirely different. > > > > The risk of these discussions is that they very often turn into > > Blub[5]-debates or simply degenerating into argumentum ad hominem[6]. > > > > So please, everyone, join hands and sing. > > > > "Java, Scala, Java-Scala jing jing jing." > > > > Cheers, > > > > [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RPG > > [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_4.0 > > [3]: http://www.jonasboner.com/ > > [4]: http://www.akkasource.com/ > > [5]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blub#Blub > > [6]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem > > > > PS. ARRR! Avast ye landlubbers! > > > > On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 3:48 PM, Liam Knox <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Productivity: > >> > >> Why aren't companies buying Scala if it is so productive? > >> I really don't get this. If everyone was a Genius you could define an > >> infinitely concise language with infinite productivity. > >> My assessment of Scala is that for the general developer, and for a > firm, > >> it is less productive than Java > >> > >> And why does everyone keep talking about DSL's? > >> > >> The financial industry has yet to even define common descriptions of > >> business entities let alone behavior. > >> DSL's appear to be being viewed in the same as AI was 10 years ago, some > >> kind of panacea > >> They are not. For a useful DSL you need consensus, multiple parties and > >> uptake. > >> > >> Having a language with an ability to design a DSL can in many ways be > >> counter productive. > >> > >> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Mario Fusco <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >>> > 1. Conciseness : You can always have bad code regardless of > >>> conciseness, > >>> > see Perl or APL for good examples. I don't buy this argument at all. > >>> Good > >>> > Java development can produce very concise code already. This is not > a > >>> > winning argument > >>> > >>> Of course you can write awful code regardless of the language. > >>> Nevertheless conciseness can be a winning factor especially in the > >>> long terms. The cost to maintain a software is directly proportional > >>> to the number of its LOCs. > >>> > >>> > 2. Productivity: The argument of individual productivity is > completely > >>> > irrelevant. You have to look a teams and indeed whole firms on this > >>> point > >>> > >>> Productivity is the real winning point of Scala if you use it in the > >>> right way. A few examples to justify this statement: > >>> > >>> a. The most important part of any meaningful application is its > >>> business model. Try to leverage the Scala features in order to write a > >>> small DSL implementing that business model and let the other guys of > >>> your team to use your DSL. The result will be an higher productivity > >>> and an easier to read and to maintain source code. > >>> b. Scala is the most extensible language I know. It allows to abstract > >>> the most common patterns you use in your code and to define your own > >>> keywords and constructs. In turns that allows you to reduce code > >>> repetitions (conciseness) and to avoid to reinvent the wheel day by > >>> day (productivity). > >>> c. The actor model, when you master it, is less error prone and more > >>> productive than the multithreading features (based on synchronization) > >>> natively provided by Java. > >>> > >>> > 3. Complexity: Java is less complex this is a plus point fact. > >>> > >>> Yes, Scala is more powerful and then more complex than Java. In my > >>> opinion this is a pro. If I didn't like complexity I'd program in > >>> VisualBasic :) > >>> > >>> > 4: Open Source momentum: Even though you have interop the opensource > >>> Java > >>> > Libraries will all feel more natural in the pure Java world. > >>> > >>> Java is around from 15 years and has millions of developers. Of course > >>> you have more tools and libraries in Java than in Scala. Anyway some > >>> of those libraries are there only to overcome some Java limitations > >>> (mine, lambdaj, is a valid example of that) and others could be more > >>> powerful and easier to be used thanks to better Scala extensibility. > >>> The wonderful Akka project ( http://akkasource.org/ ) is a good > >>> example of that. It is just a matter of time and in the meanwhile you > >>> can still use the Java libraries with a not so big effort. > >>> > >>> > 5. Functional Programming: Most developers see this as a big plus > >>> > point > >>> but > >>> > one must keep asking why, as functional programming has been around > for > >>> > donkeys years, has it still had little impact to date? > >>> > >>> Why do object oriented vs functional programming discussions often > >>> sound so similar to catholics vs muslims ones? Scala is the > >>> demonstration that the two programming models can coexist in the same > >>> language. > >>> > >>> Why does functional programming still has a so little impact? Well, > >>> probably for the same reasons why Windows is still far more used than > >>> Unix-based operating systems: > >>> > >>> a. It is less powerful and then less complex. People are lazy and > >>> don't want to put their brain at work. But we, as developers, should > >>> let our brains working. > >>> b. It is easily available. The biggest part of the pc are sell with > >>> Windows already installed. In the same way managers and companies ask > >>> for Java developer since they are easier to be sell. > >>> c. For some reason, especially in our field, the best technology is > >>> rarely the winning one. > >>> > >>> Bye, > >>> Mario Fusco > >>> twitter: @mariofusco > >>> > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >>> "The Java Posse" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > <javaposse%[email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > > > >>> . > >>> For more options, visit this group at > >>> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > >>> > >>> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > >> "The Java Posse" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > <javaposse%[email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > > > >> . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Viktor Klang, > > Code Connoisseur > > ======================= > > Code: github.com/jboner/akka > > Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang > > Read: klangism.tumbler.com > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "The Java Posse" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > . > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "The Java Posse" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<javaposse%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en. > > -- Viktor Klang, Code Connoisseur Work: www.akkasource.com Code: github.com/viktorklang Follow: twitter.com/viktorklang Read: klangism.tumbler.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. 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