This post doesn't even make sense. What in the flying blazes do logging frameworks have in common with REPLs vs. advanced debuggers? The only thing I can imagine is that you do not see that debuggers and REPL have rather a lot in common, but, then, being completely obtuse is something I've grown to expect of you. As is piping up when nobody wants to hear it.
The fact that you then start whining about having a 2m+ turn-around for 'some web server' further suggests you just don't know what an advanced debugger can do, so, there's not much point replying to anything else other than: Go use an advanced debugger. Fire up your webserver setup in the debugger and just write some new code, or highlight (or type) any expression. the expressions are evaluated 'live'. The code you change is integrated 'live'. If need be a debugger will even rerun the frame. 2m+ turnaround time? No. Type, hit cmd+s, cmd+tab,cmd+r. If it's some sort of live ajax callback whatnot, no need for the reload. On Thursday, December 22, 2011 9:51:32 AM UTC+1, KWright wrote: > > >> * REPLs are pointless in real life (go away, Kevin), the java IDEs have >> debuggers that can do everything a REPL does for serious work and more... >> EXCEPT for first steps programming language, for the same reason: It's >> perfectly feasible for me to tell some programming whinging about a lack of >> a REPL for java to go spend a week or two becoming an ace at the eclipse >> debugger and then reapply for the job, or whatnot. It's completely >> inappropriate to tell a first-steps student to try to make heads or tails >> of one. >> > > In true xmas panto fashion: "Oh no I shan't" > > If somebody complained about the lack of logging in a codebase, would you > also send them off to go and become an expert in the debugger. Or if they > complained about the lack of Lombok support when the team uses IntelliJ, > would they have to go and become expert at writing IntelliJ plugins? > > All the best initial-learner languages have REPLs. Logo, Scheme, > Smalltalk, Scala (via Kojo, anyway, it's a modern day Logo - see Cay > Horstmann's blog for more info). They're not just for learning either, I > can think of numerous experiences *every day* where I've been able to > explore an algorithm faster and in more depth by way of a REPL. I find it > hard to understand how someone can claim - with a straight face - that > they're agile when also accepting 2min+ redeployment times against some web > server to iteratively solve a problem. > > > >> Contrast this to javascript, which is more or less simple, and you get >> instant and immediate payoff. You get a fantastic REPL (load up a webpage, >> hit the 'patch jquery into this thing' bookmarklet, then open up the webkit >> console and go nuts), everybody has everything they need to just start out >> (a webbrowser) >> > > Yay, go REPLs! I do exactly this when "serious work" is required on a > website. > > > >> Really - this, or logo. Any other choice, including python, is stupid, >> IMO. >> > > Okay, Logo, it has a REPL and it's a good choice. I'm in violent > agreement. > > > REPLs are a beautiful feature for any language. The immediate feedback > that they offer learners is just as useful for experienced programmers in > rapid prototyping and diagnostics for much larger "enterprise-level" > systems. Don't knock 'em! > > > > -- > Kevin Wright > mail: [email protected] > gtalk / msn : [email protected] > quora: http://www.quora.com/Kevin-Wright > google+: http://gplus.to/thecoda > twitter: @thecoda > vibe / skype: kev.lee.wright > steam: kev_lee_wright > > "My point today is that, if we wish to count lines of code, we should not > regard them as "lines produced" but as "lines spent": the current > conventional wisdom is so foolish as to book that count on the wrong side > of the ledger" ~ Dijkstra > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/TaY0CH06C_UJ. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
