OK - let's see if I can get this straight. On Saturday, December 24, 2011 7:19:53 AM UTC-8, Reinier Zwitserloot wrote: > > ]Sure, that sounds about right. I open my scrapbook (which is the exact > same thing as a REPL, just not called a REPL - you've apparently missed the > point but I'll get into that next paragraph) about a tenth as often as you > do, but then, java is easier to understand so there's less for me to try > out. > > REPLs are useless, but something not called a REPL built into eclipse is super-useful and you use it all the time despite being an experienced java developer. The only difference seems to be the name. I would posit that I am not the one who missed the point here.
> > > Here's where you missed the point. Yes, what REPLs do is very handy. But I > don't have to use a spoon to eat soup; I can use a spork as well. > > I use a spoon, always, to eat soup. Even camping. It's just a better tool for the job. I don't think I missed a point. You said REPLs were useless for anything except beginners. I said they were not. You seem to back up my position with scrapbooks. > java has no REPL. But eclipse has scrapbook pages. These do everything > REPLs do and more. It's almost exactly like sbt console in that I get the > project's classpath 'for free'. > > Great, just like the REPL. As you mention below though, you still can't interact with the scrapbook as easily as with the REPL. It would be a bit like using a text editor for issuing shell commands at the command line, and having to select those lines to evaluate them one by one. Sure, you can do that, but why on earth would you want to? > Now, don't get me wrong, the eclipse scrapbook functionality has boatloads > that needs to be done. Having to be a wizard at using command line foo to > select expressions so I can evaluate them is frankly ridiculously (enter > should just eval the expression I just typed, or at least give me a > shortcut key to do it, exceptions shouldn't be pasted straight into the > scrapbook but shown in the console view, etc, etc, etc), but learning an > all new language just because the scrapbook functionality bothers you seems > rather drastic. It would be easier to write an entirely new scrapbook > plugin for eclipse! > > I would agree that learning a new language just because your current one doesn't have a REPL is nonsense, but that is not related to your original statement that a REPL is useless for anything but beginners. Using eclipse to clean freshly caught fish is equally nonsensical, but that doesn't have anything to do with the original point either. > I stand by my point that a REPL, as compared to java's advanced debuggers, > is a pointless addition except as a teaching tool. I have _NEVER_ met any > person that continued arguing in favour of scala / python / some other > language with built in REPL that actually knew how to use the eclipse / > netbeans / intellij debugger well. Then again I don't think I ever asked > specifically on the javaposse groups, so maybe somebody's out there who can > tell me what I'm missing. > > So the REPL is still a pointless addition even though it provides a slicker more interactive experience to experimenting with APIs and the language than scrapbooks, and scrapbooks are awesome except when they're not. Got it. Clear as crystal. As for never meeting any person who continued to argue in favor of scala/python/some other language with a built in REPL that actually knew how to use the eclipse/netbeans/intellij debugger well? I would say you know me. I am that person and I do still argue in favor of it. Of course I use the debuggers in IDEs as well, I bring every tool I can to bear on a project that will get me to the answer more quickly. The REPL is certainly in that toolbox, as is unit testing, debugging, profiling, static analysis, reading books, being open to other peoples ideas, etc. So, now you have met someone that has clearly made that observation. Maybe there are some others on this list who would say the same. Certainly Guido would, he seems very keen on python, and the shell is a big part of Python's value proposition, even though pydev and other tools give you a pretty nice debugger as well. To be even clearer, I use the REPL in addition to all of the other tools you mention here (apart from the scrapbook in eclipse, cos I don't use eclipse, but IDEA as you mention has similar features). I can even start the sbt console in IDEA, and try stuff out right from there, it's still the same REPL I always use, just with more colors. Tell you what, let's call it a scrapbook and we can all agree - it is Christmas after all. Dick -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "The Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/PeYU_KRIVSAJ. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
