On Thursday, May 17, 2012 6:20:59 AM UTC-5, Casper Bang wrote: > I can assure you, that is not a .NET aspect. Oracle's ADF framework and > JDeveloper (we don't get much more official within the Java stack than > this) is littered with point-n-click and XML which is utterly impossible to > maintain afterward. >
I emphatically agree with you on the horrors of JSF and Oracle's ADF. They were aiming for the dumbed down success of ASP.NET and their product was worse in every way. There's tons of other garbage within the Java space as well. But this really doesn't affect my main point: Java's overall success has been with the more veteran developers with maximum choice and .NET's success has been with the more dumbed down IT job crowd. No doubt CS graduates bring along their own preference for tools, > technologies and (software) religion/politics - often skewed towards the > things you mention. However, one can also choose to adopt the view that a > developers purpose is to solve business problems with the best tools > available rather than spending time reinventing the wheel, flip-flopping > between choices etc. > It's easy to poo poo someone else's technology preferences as religion/politics. Let me guess, the tools and technologies you love are logical choices for solving business problems, while the technologies the other guy loves are irrational, whiny, religion, and politics. Casper, I'm sure that if you had to do a ton of integration or maintenance work with some technology stack that you absolutely can't stand, you would be miserable, you'd drag your feet and grouse about it. But one person's trash is another person's treasure. You are passionate about SharePoint C# development work, you are probably energetic about doing it, and I bet your manager is grateful to have you. And those kind of win-win relationships are what make the world a better place. On one side, workers need to deliver value to their employers and society, justify their jobs, accept compromise, and not be primadonnas. But on the other side, it's reasonable for workers to desire meaning, growth, engagement, and some level of choice and input on tools and technology. Ultimately, the two sides have to continually manage that conflict of interests. So because Xamarin is using C# (an open standard, syntactically superior to > Java) implemented by one of the most famous active hackers today, it's > entry-level and a threat to you? That sounds like the prejudice > and typecasting I find to be the worst part of the Java community. > I didn't say that at all. Lots of managers and personal friends who I have a deep respect for, use all Microsoft tools, use C# almost every day, and I would never insult or belittle them. A lot of smart good people use Microsoft Word and don't have the first clue about LaTeX or markup centric document tools, and that doesn't make them bad people, it's just that they don't understand the document tool space very well. Xamarin isn't merely using C# and building their own products, they are loudly flaming Java/JVM/Dalvik/Google/Oracle. In the post you linked, Miguel de Icaza gloats over the Google/Oracle lawsuit issue, bashes Java syntax, bashes Java performance, and posts some dishonestly cherry picked benchmarks scores. His public posts are more of a manipulative PR guy than a product developer. I know this specific post is primarily referring to Dalvik not the Oracle desktop JVM and HotSpot, but if C# the language is so superior and more performant than Java, why does Java/HotSpot outperform C#/Mono in benchmarks (I previously posted the link here) by such a large margin? Why won't Xamarin let anyone benchmark their Android products without buying a $399 license? Why doesn't Miguel even acknowledge independent benchmark scores and the overwhelming evidence that contradicts his claims, rather than hiding it and redirecting the public's attention to more heavily doctored benchmarks? He's not even pretending to be reasonable or honest about this. What's worse is large numbers of people believe him. This post ran on all the big tech news blogs. You can read the editors on those sites as well as thousands of user comments accepting his conclusion that C# is faster than Java. Nevermind that it's the VM that is the major factor in runtime performance rather than source language syntax. And nevermind that Java/HotSpot destroy C#/Mono in these types of microbenchmark tests. And nevermind that he's completely doctoring his benchmark system to manipulate public opinion. And he's prevented other people from benchmarking his open source based product without a $399 license. And I see Vince O'Sullivan snidely remarks in this thread, "It's lucky we're not like that, isn't it. ;". Sure, you can say that everyone's opinion is just as biased as everyone else's and every perspective is just as valid or invalid as everyone else's and there's no point in discussing or evaluating anything. I actually care about what I'm doing. When I read this kind of rampant misinformation spreading from this purposefully dishonest source about a tool ecosystem that I think has real merit, I think it's worth commenting on. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Java Posse" group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/javaposse/-/JKDcYRpqjOUJ. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/javaposse?hl=en.
