Yes Marc, and thank God. I have been having dreams of the day when I can
have an EJB2.0 container so that I can abstract away my database
implementation from my object model implementation. One of the biggest
problems on a project I'm working on it that very issue. I'm all for real
CMP, I think it is the best of all possible worlds - but as with all things
I take it with a grain of salt :) BTW, when will jBoss be 2.0 compat?
-----Original Message-----
From: marc fleury [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 10:43 PM
To: jBoss
Subject: RE: [jBoss-User] Case studies
Ok my favorite pet subject.
CMP vs BMP IS NOT AN ISSUE.
Most people ask "which is best CMP or BMP".
BMP: You use when you have a schema and the sql already written. Moving to
CMP doesn't bring you much. In fact most people with DB and queries prefer
the servlet approach with good reason.
In short those that come from the database reach the web as quickly as
possible and that is servlet, BMP is of little value to them at the end of
the day.
Lazy CMP: Well there will be those that want the EJB stuff and already have
the schema and will rely on say cocobase to generate BMP beans that act like
CMP. If the container has CMP and deals with any preexisting schema it is
really like Cocobase (i.e. "container managed" through the O/R tool). These
guys already know what a database is, have schemas, people in place and just
need a tool to generate the code for them.
Real CMP: says "what is a database?"... jboss is in that category (although
it can do both of the above). If you write a class and you deploy, jboss
will create a schema for you that will be able to persist your objects
automagically. No sql is ever written, you don't know what a "schema" is
and for all you care it can be a OODBMS. Real CMP masks the Database for
you, you never see it, you never see a schema.
Sylvain Laurent wrote most of Telkel's online deployment we were showing at
J1. All J2EE (jsp, servlet and CMP) and the beans were fairly complex with
references to other beans and stuff. It blew him away when, once he was
done writting the classes the schema was created for him by introspection on
deployment. A *clear* value add for all the guys that model applications
and don't want to bother with SQL and the database. We call it "one click
deployment", that wouldn't be possible without real CMP.
You are particularly right in saying that the DB vendors are really waging
war here. This is where it is at, THEY DON"T WANT YOU TO FORGET WHAT A
SCHEMA IS!!!!! people that come from the web to the persistence, and people
that come from the DB on out cross each other on J2EE.
The spec writers know this. Historically EJB1.0 entity was pushed by IBM
and it was mostly Relational->Web. Automated CMP was therefore not
specified completely (dependencies, optimized queries etc etc). EJB 2.0
under Linda DeMichiel et al addreses this, EJB2.0 is clearly geared at
making (at least in the persistence section) the "real CMP" work fast and in
a standard way.
regards
marc
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Greg Pierce
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 3:02 PM
> To: 'jBoss'
> Subject: RE: [jBoss-User] Case studies
>
>
> I've been working on this project, and its cool and stuff :) Nah,
> seriously
> though I have been coming to terms with CMP and dealing with O/R
> issues that
> continue to be the bain of my Java programming experience. Moving
> hierarchies of objects or 1-N relationships onto EJB is pure
> torture in many
> cases. That's the part that I can't stand and the source of my
> only negative
> experience with EJB... the designers of EJB were too database
> focussed in my
> mind :)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: marc fleury [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 5:30 PM
> To: jBoss
> Subject: RE: [jBoss-User] Case studies
>
>
> but before we go there, please let's keep this thread on feedback i think
> this is TRULY very valuable.
>
> I can't believe there were no negative experiences? come on!
>
> marc
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Kenneth Topp
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 1:57 PM
> > To: jBoss
> > Subject: RE: [jBoss-User] Case studies
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Isn't the database the perfect place for a j2ee container? That was my
> > impression, just starting to work with it. When the books cover the
> > latest standard, the software supports the latest minus one, and people
> > are deploying latest minus two, I understand when people have
> issues with
> > j2ee (ejb in particular). If it moves that fast, it needed to,
> no? That
> > is why I discount people saying it _the_ thing. That being said, I do
> > think it's the right direction (i'm not a naysayer ;).
> >
> > In particular, I've heard much about bmp vs cmp, and that no
> one is doing
> > cmp right. I haven't done much with ejb, except try to
> understand it, but
> > am interested in peoples perspective (how persistence will work
> best, and
> > where the container will end up).
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Kenneth Topp
> >
> > On Tue, 8 Aug 2000, Greg Pierce wrote:
> >
> > > Jeremy I'm not sure how much you've looked around, but you may
> > want to look
> > > at Orion if you're looking for something thats more affordable
> > and is more
> > > featured as a commercial product. I cringe at the idea of using
> > a databases
> > > vendors internally developed appserver - I've been fighting
> > this on my end
> > > on a project I'm interested in. Sure its nice to say 'well
> the database
> > > supports that', but just as with anything else once you go down
> > that dark
> > > road there is usually no coming back from the embedding of LOTS of
> > > proprietary code into your system. I think Oracle makes a good
> > database, but
> > > their tools and support systems are of the devil :)
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Jeremy Clymer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2000 2:51 PM
> > > To: jBoss
> > > Subject: RE: [jBoss-User] Case studies
> > >
> > >
> > > > Come on! I need "real life" we have so much IT people on
> the list with
> > > > ongoing projects. Can we hear your failures and your successes?
> > >
> > > In my department, we have been using Oracle 8i's JServer for EJBs with
> > > terrible results. They force you to use too much proprietary
> > code and its
> > > not easy to develop on. We chase obscure errors and need to
> spend time
> > > working around different oracle problems that come up. I love their
> > > database, but they are so far off the original intention of the
> > EJB spec.
> > >
> > > Thats why I've been looking into JBoss. A free app server
> > thats written to
> > > the latest spec. The only problem that I have with JBoss is
> > that it won't
> > > be complete in time for my applications to go live. Therefore I have
> > > recommended that we go with Weblogic. It comes with its own
> > problems, such
> > > as high cost, but the fact that it is proven in the industry
> to provide
> > > scalable solutions to large projects gives the project managers the
> > > confidence they need.
> > >
> > > JBoss on the other hand is not yet a complete solution. I'm
> > sure that when
> > > it is done, it will compete with the best app servers on the
> > market. But
> > > for my needs, its development won't be complete in time.
> > >
> > > Jeremy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Problems?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Problems?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> > To subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Problems?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> To subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Problems?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> To subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Problems?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Problems?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
--------------------------------------------------------------
To subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To unsubscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Problems?: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
