I agree, Gunter, and I did commend Marty Hall's book in my note. Indeed, I
also took his 5-day seminar, rarely offered publicly, which is also
definitely worth getting into if you can (see coreservlets.com for more,
including all the examples from his book). Marty's a great guy and an
excellent instructor. And you're right that the book does try to explain
things, but he and I discussed this point and he agrees that those without a
java background would be hard-pressed to really understand it all. Indeed,
the book states in the introduction, "Although I don't assume any
familiarity with server-side programming, I do expect you to be familiar
with the basics of java language development."
I guess this goes to another point I only made in passing: sure, you can
learn JSP (and maybe even write some servlets) with only a modicum of Java
knowledge (and some hand-holding), but gosh you just won't get far before
the mysteries of packages, instance versus class data, threading, classpath
settings, the lifecycle of objects, and lots of other things (choosing
between inheritance and aggregation, interfaces and inner classes, and more)
become really challenging.
I'm not knocking the value of rising to the challenge. Learning to program
in Java will expose you to many nuances and subtleties that often are missed
in procedural programming. Such ideas as programming in the "problem space"
versus the "solution space", separating "things that change from things that
stay the same", implementation hiding, and the simple matter of being forced
to do your design up front are all valuable lessons learned that can
influence even one's CF or ASP programming.
It's just that no one should assert that this stuff will be easy. I'm
reminded of a comment by Bruce Eckel in his Hands on Java Seminar, where he
quoted someone else who'd said something like "saying java is easier than
c++ is like saying k-2 is shorter then Everest (the two largest mountains in
the world). Sure, it is, but only by a tiny fraction."
For people making the trek up the Java mountain to enterprise-class web
applications, I'm just saying be careful who you talk to as you pack your
bags and gather your sherpas and fellow climbers. Many a project has "died"
before making it to the top for having been misled about the challenge of
reaching the summit.
/charlie
-----Original Message-----
From: Gunter Sammet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 10:04 AM
To: JRun-Talk
Subject: RE: JRun-Talk-List V1 #51
I'm picked up the book "core SERVLETS and JAVAsERVER PAGES" from Marty Hall
and find it an excellent book.
For reader without Java background, the sample code is explained. If you
know Java, reading the code is usually enough.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of JRun-Talk
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:51 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: JRun-Talk-List V1 #51
JRun-Talk-List Mon, 30 Jul 2001 Volume 1 : Number
51
In this issue:
Re: Learning path
Name/password cannot be different than already specified in
properties
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:06:30 -0700
From: "Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Learning path
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Excellent, Charlie is right on target. I have spent much money picking up
books only to find them inadequate for what I need to do. Perhaps this is a
good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a book,
collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that book
that has it all). In addition, code good examples of actual sites out there
(if permitted) can also enhance the learning curve.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Arehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "JRun-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 10:56 PM
Subject: RE: Learning path
> Bert, I know you're asking for materials that "aren't just tutorial but
also
> design and case study", but since others have asked about the general
> transition from ASP (or CF, PHP, Perl, etc.) to servlets/JSP, here are
some
> thoughts that cover a little of all three. Folks really do need to learn
> quite a lot to be truly effective: Java, as a base, for sure, and of
course
> J2EE (servlets, JSP's and EJB's, at least) in general.
>
> A big challenge, I find, is that the beginning Java books often focus on
> teaching client-side Java for a substantial percentage of the book. While
> books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and
rightly
> so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's not
a
> bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who wants
to
> learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of
course
> folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to its
> credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side
> development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus on
> either "side" of the platform.
>
> On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already know
> java but they're generally focused on teaching web app development to
those
> experienced java programmers. As such, not only must you know Java to
really
> get into the books, but you have to weed through some web app development
> info you may already know--or bear with the author's potential newness to
> web app development (I find a lot of J2EE books fail to suggest or
> demonstrate such simple things as JavaScript, for instance. OK, so one can
> learn it elsewhere, but someone needs to lead those using J2EE as their
> first web app platform to appreciate why it's worth doing).
>
> Then there's the whole debate over EJBs (should you, shouldn't you),
> understanding the difference between javabeans and EJBs, weeding through
> books that discuss javabeans for their use in client-side development
only,
> etc.
>
> Among the more popular resources for server-side development are Core
> Servlets and JSP, Professional Java Server Programming J2EE Ed.,
O'Reilly's
> Enterprise JavaBeans, and others. Of course, Sun has its J2EE tutorial
> (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/tutorial/index.html), the J2EE Blueprints, and
> many other resources.
>
> At least, in the case of a real walkthrough, the Java Pet Store example
from
> Sun is a reasonably complete application and the BluePrints book (online
and
> in print as "Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition BluePrints") walks one
> through it and the solutions employed in it. See
> http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/ for these and lots more.
>
> On another tack, if those making the move to servlets/JSP are also new to
> object-oriented programming and design (haven't had C++, SmallTalk, or
> similar experience), that's another whole level of complexity to be
> understood (and effectively used). For this, I'd strongly recommend
Jacquie
> Barker's "Beginning Java Objects" (Wrox). While some may argue against it
as
> a first java book, I think for the right audience it's great for just
that.
> And this audience may be especially well-suited to its approach. I found
no
> other book did as good a job at putting OO (programming AND design AND
> implementation--and even UML and more) all into perspective.
>
> Then, there's the whole matter of patterns. You won't get far before
> discussions of "observers", "proxies", "factories", "facades" and lots
more
> start cropping up. Of course, the seminal work is "Design Patterns" from
> Gamma, et al (with its distinct C++ focus, though still foundational for
all
> OO programmers), and one of its co-authors wrote "Pattern Hatching". There
> are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in
Java.
> Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE patterns
> covered in a book ("Core J2EE Patterns") and a sun site
> (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/design_patterns/index.html).
>
> There's clearly a need in the market for something to address the audience
> of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting languages
to
> JSP/Servlets, etc, especially if they're also new to Java. For now, you
have
> to pick and choose.
>
> On the training front, Macromedia's recognized this need with their split
of
> the former "servlets, jsp and java" class into a new "java for web
> developers" class focused on just the kind of core java needed to get
> started, then offering "fasttrack to jsp" to cover JSP basics, and a
coming
> "Building j2ee applications with JRun" class (still in the works) to get
> more into JDBC, servlets, javabeans, EJBs, and more.
>
> Then there are sites like jspinsider.com, jguru.com, theserverside.com,
and
> others, as well as magazines like Java Developers Journal, Java Pro, and
> Java Report.
>
> I'm sure others will have still more suggested resources, and I'd
certainly
> welcome their feedback if any on those mentioned here.
>
> /charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:08 AM
> To: JRun-Talk
> Subject: Re: Learning path
>
>
> As a Asp developer making the transition to Java ,Java beans and Jsp where
> would anyone suggest his or her learning path be any sites out there not
> just to get up to speed or tutorials but to design a site or case study
> using Jsp,Java and Xml etc?
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at
http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm
Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/
Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
