Charles:
Thanks for the excellent advise on how to move into Java/JSP, etc.
I have read all of the books you mentioned. My experience with all of this
is that had I not taken a Java class, I really would have been stuck.
The toughest thing for me was figuring out where files go. It was a
nightmare and I just couldn't get a definitive answer. I'm doing fine now
with JRun. It really is the easiest to work with over Tomcat.
Again, it's definately worth a Java class for anyone going into JSP/Java,
JavaBeans, etc.
Thanks again for your always worthwhile advise.
Yvette Ingram
Brainbench Certified ColdFusion 4.5 Programmer
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
[EMAIL PROTECTED], or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ICQ: 21200397
Website: http://www.tkisolutions.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Arehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "JRun-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: Learning path
> I agree, Gunter, and I did commend Marty Hall's book in my note. Indeed, I
> also took his 5-day seminar, rarely offered publicly, which is also
> definitely worth getting into if you can (see coreservlets.com for more,
> including all the examples from his book). Marty's a great guy and an
> excellent instructor. And you're right that the book does try to explain
> things, but he and I discussed this point and he agrees that those without
a
> java background would be hard-pressed to really understand it all. Indeed,
> the book states in the introduction, "Although I don't assume any
> familiarity with server-side programming, I do expect you to be familiar
> with the basics of java language development."
>
> I guess this goes to another point I only made in passing: sure, you can
> learn JSP (and maybe even write some servlets) with only a modicum of Java
> knowledge (and some hand-holding), but gosh you just won't get far before
> the mysteries of packages, instance versus class data, threading,
classpath
> settings, the lifecycle of objects, and lots of other things (choosing
> between inheritance and aggregation, interfaces and inner classes, and
more)
> become really challenging.
>
> I'm not knocking the value of rising to the challenge. Learning to program
> in Java will expose you to many nuances and subtleties that often are
missed
> in procedural programming. Such ideas as programming in the "problem
space"
> versus the "solution space", separating "things that change from things
that
> stay the same", implementation hiding, and the simple matter of being
forced
> to do your design up front are all valuable lessons learned that can
> influence even one's CF or ASP programming.
>
> It's just that no one should assert that this stuff will be easy. I'm
> reminded of a comment by Bruce Eckel in his Hands on Java Seminar, where
he
> quoted someone else who'd said something like "saying java is easier than
> c++ is like saying k-2 is shorter then Everest (the two largest mountains
in
> the world). Sure, it is, but only by a tiny fraction."
>
> For people making the trek up the Java mountain to enterprise-class web
> applications, I'm just saying be careful who you talk to as you pack your
> bags and gather your sherpas and fellow climbers. Many a project has
"died"
> before making it to the top for having been misled about the challenge of
> reaching the summit.
>
> /charlie
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gunter Sammet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 10:04 AM
> To: JRun-Talk
> Subject: RE: JRun-Talk-List V1 #51
>
>
> I'm picked up the book "core SERVLETS and JAVAsERVER PAGES" from Marty
Hall
> and find it an excellent book.
>
> For reader without Java background, the sample code is explained. If you
> know Java, reading the code is usually enough.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of JRun-Talk
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:51 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: JRun-Talk-List V1 #51
>
>
> JRun-Talk-List Mon, 30 Jul 2001 Volume 1 :
Number
> 51
>
> In this issue:
>
> Re: Learning path
> Name/password cannot be different than already specified in
> properties
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2001 09:06:30 -0700
> From: "Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Learning path
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Excellent, Charlie is right on target. I have spent much money picking up
> books only to find them inadequate for what I need to do. Perhaps this is
a
> good opportunity for this community to take the initiative to write a
book,
> collaboratively, that addresses the need (we have been waiting for that
book
> that has it all). In addition, code good examples of actual sites out
there
> (if permitted) can also enhance the learning curve.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Arehart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "JRun-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2001 10:56 PM
> Subject: RE: Learning path
>
>
> > Bert, I know you're asking for materials that "aren't just tutorial but
> also
> > design and case study", but since others have asked about the general
> > transition from ASP (or CF, PHP, Perl, etc.) to servlets/JSP, here are
> some
> > thoughts that cover a little of all three. Folks really do need to learn
> > quite a lot to be truly effective: Java, as a base, for sure, and of
> course
> > J2EE (servlets, JSP's and EJB's, at least) in general.
> >
> > A big challenge, I find, is that the beginning Java books often focus on
> > teaching client-side Java for a substantial percentage of the book.
While
> > books like Core Java 2 and Beginning Java 2 are highly commended and
> rightly
> > so, they have upwards of 40% or more on applets, swing, awt, etc. It's
not
> a
> > bad thing, but it reflects an old mentality that "surely anyone who
wants
> to
> > learn java wants to build applets and client applications", which of
> course
> > folks making the server-side transition may not. Thinking in Java, to
its
> > credit, devotes only a single chapter each to client- and server-side
> > development, being especially solid at the core of java without a focus
on
> > either "side" of the platform.
> >
> > On the other hand, most J2EE-level books not only presume you already
know
> > java but they're generally focused on teaching web app development to
> those
> > experienced java programmers. As such, not only must you know Java to
> really
> > get into the books, but you have to weed through some web app
development
> > info you may already know--or bear with the author's potential newness
to
> > web app development (I find a lot of J2EE books fail to suggest or
> > demonstrate such simple things as JavaScript, for instance. OK, so one
can
> > learn it elsewhere, but someone needs to lead those using J2EE as their
> > first web app platform to appreciate why it's worth doing).
> >
> > Then there's the whole debate over EJBs (should you, shouldn't you),
> > understanding the difference between javabeans and EJBs, weeding through
> > books that discuss javabeans for their use in client-side development
> only,
> > etc.
> >
> > Among the more popular resources for server-side development are Core
> > Servlets and JSP, Professional Java Server Programming J2EE Ed.,
> O'Reilly's
> > Enterprise JavaBeans, and others. Of course, Sun has its J2EE tutorial
> > (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/tutorial/index.html), the J2EE Blueprints, and
> > many other resources.
> >
> > At least, in the case of a real walkthrough, the Java Pet Store example
> from
> > Sun is a reasonably complete application and the BluePrints book (online
> and
> > in print as "Java 2 Platform, Enterprise Edition BluePrints") walks one
> > through it and the solutions employed in it. See
> > http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/ for these and lots more.
> >
> > On another tack, if those making the move to servlets/JSP are also new
to
> > object-oriented programming and design (haven't had C++, SmallTalk, or
> > similar experience), that's another whole level of complexity to be
> > understood (and effectively used). For this, I'd strongly recommend
> Jacquie
> > Barker's "Beginning Java Objects" (Wrox). While some may argue against
it
> as
> > a first java book, I think for the right audience it's great for just
> that.
> > And this audience may be especially well-suited to its approach. I found
> no
> > other book did as good a job at putting OO (programming AND design AND
> > implementation--and even UML and more) all into perspective.
> >
> > Then, there's the whole matter of patterns. You won't get far before
> > discussions of "observers", "proxies", "factories", "facades" and lots
> more
> > start cropping up. Of course, the seminal work is "Design Patterns" from
> > Gamma, et al (with its distinct C++ focus, though still foundational for
> all
> > OO programmers), and one of its co-authors wrote "Pattern Hatching".
There
> > are still other books that lead one through use of design patterns in
> Java.
> > Then there are still more "architecture patterns", including J2EE
patterns
> > covered in a book ("Core J2EE Patterns") and a sun site
> > (http://java.sun.com/j2ee/blueprints/design_patterns/index.html).
> >
> > There's clearly a need in the market for something to address the
audience
> > of folks making the transition from other server-side scripting
languages
> to
> > JSP/Servlets, etc, especially if they're also new to Java. For now, you
> have
> > to pick and choose.
> >
> > On the training front, Macromedia's recognized this need with their
split
> of
> > the former "servlets, jsp and java" class into a new "java for web
> > developers" class focused on just the kind of core java needed to get
> > started, then offering "fasttrack to jsp" to cover JSP basics, and a
> coming
> > "Building j2ee applications with JRun" class (still in the works) to get
> > more into JDBC, servlets, javabeans, EJBs, and more.
> >
> > Then there are sites like jspinsider.com, jguru.com, theserverside.com,
> and
> > others, as well as magazines like Java Developers Journal, Java Pro, and
> > Java Report.
> >
> > I'm sure others will have still more suggested resources, and I'd
> certainly
> > welcome their feedback if any on those mentioned here.
> >
> > /charlie
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Bert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2001 3:08 AM
> > To: JRun-Talk
> > Subject: Re: Learning path
> >
> >
> > As a Asp developer making the transition to Java ,Java beans and Jsp
where
> > would anyone suggest his or her learning path be any sites out there not
> > just to get up to speed or tutorials but to design a site or case study
> > using Jsp,Java and Xml etc?
> >
>
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