Allan D. and Jeremy just forwarded me the email thread stating that the user
list might be held off until later.

I have no idea how I missed this - I use GMail for mail, and I've searched
all folders, and no results come up.  That I didn't reply to any of the
responses when I was the one who initiated the thread should hopefully be
evidence enough that I wasn't aware of it.

I believe it should still be set up, per the approved Proposal.  Even if the
traffic is low, that doesn't hurt anything.  The OS world expects at a
minimum dev lists and user lists - we should have them both, especially
since they have already been approved.

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:23 AM, Les Hazlewood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> CC'ing to dev so our mentors can review...
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Les Hazlewood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Actually, in our Incubator Proposal, section 3.1, we had asked for 4
>> lists, one of which was a user list, the intention of which was to have it
>> from day one.  This was publicly available for review by anyone for weeks.
>> The proposal was reviewed extensively and voted upon by the Incubator PMC,
>> and no one once said that a user list should be postponed.
>>
>> I don't know where you've seen arguments to sticking with the dev list for
>> now - I've never heard of these, and I'm rather surprised that a user list
>> does not yet exist.
>>
>> I guess what I'm saying is that the Proposal has been voted upon and
>> approved - there is no further need to vote internally for a user list.  If
>> you want to hold a vote, it should be to reverse what has already been
>> approved - that we vote to _not_ set up the already-approved list.
>>
>> I will vote a hearty -1 for such a proposal.  User lists have nothing to
>> do with traffic and have everything to do with routing.  Most end-users
>> don't want to be bothered by architecture or implementation internal
>> details.  And since we don't have a Forum product in the Incubator
>> infrastructure, there is _no_ outlet for end users for communication other
>> than the current dev list.  That is not what the dev list is for.  That we
>> already have more user subscribers than dev subscribers in our current
>> infrastructure should shed to light its importance and reason for
>> provisioning.
>>
>> My .02
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Jeremy Haile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> This has been discussed several times on the incubator list, and has
>>> always been left somewhat unanswered.  If we need to hold a vote on it, we
>>> can but the current decision and what was in our original proposal was to
>>> just have a dev list at the beginning.
>>> Alan, based on past experience, recommended not creating a user list
>>> until there was enough traffic so as to have a more interesting list to
>>> subscribe to and not have a list that's mostly dead.
>>>
>>> I don't agree with setting one up immediately (i.e. without discussion
>>> and/or a vote), especially since there have been arguments for sticking with
>>> just the dev list for now.  I don't see why a project should have multiple
>>> lists if the traffic on one list is small.
>>>
>>> Jeremy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jul 1, 2008, at 9:46 AM, Les Hazlewood wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Jeremy Haile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No.  There is no [EMAIL PROTECTED] list.  We are not
>>>> adding a user list until we have enough traffic on dev to require one.
>>>
>>>
>>> I didn't know there wasn't one yet.  Who determined that "we are not
>>> adding a user list until we have enough traffic on dev to require one"?  Is
>>> this an Incubator practice?
>>>
>>> A user list has nothing to do with traffic - it has to do with routing
>>> appropriate requests - dev list posts are for the people committing to and
>>> contributing to the project.  User list posts are for end users who just
>>> want to ask questions or help other end users out.
>>>
>>> If we don't have a user list set up, I'm cc'ing Alan and Craig - every OS
>>> project should have these two lists at a bare minimum...  We have a user
>>> list now, with more subscribers on it than the dev list - we need to mirror
>>> this in the incubator infrastructure.
>>>
>>> Alan, Craig? Can we get this set up asap?
>>>
>>> - Les
>>>
>>> use the [email protected] list for any questions
>>>> related to JSecurity.
>>>>
>>>> You can find information on our mailing lists and how to subscribe here:
>>>> http://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/JSEC/Mailing+Lists
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 1, 2008, at 8:40 AM, Peter Ledbrook wrote:
>>>>
>>>>  2008/7/1 Les Hazlewood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S.  Also, just a friendly reminder - please use the
>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] list.  We'll be moving away from
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> codehaus lists shortly!
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do we have this yet? I thought we only had "jsecurity-dev" so far?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Peter
>>>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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